Story Nitrogen-Diving mask kit test results

J

Jpd998

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Thanks again Diver K A and everyone. I really appreciate it. So after nearly buying the more expensive mask as it’s suppose to have an even better seal, I found some reviews that some have have said they have a harder time breathing through it than any second stage regulator out there. That one has to inhale and exhale more forceful to activate the second stage. Considering what the mask would be used for I decided Ocean Reef with surface air valve is probably best for me and I think the best. It appears one can tune the OTS guardian regulator but this starts to become too much work.

If anyone is curious, I paid $1,300 total for the entire setup after taxes. I know this can be done cheaper if I had a cheaper mask but I don’t want to risk any air leaking in.

I do feel this setup is better, more peaceful and more reliable than liquid or powder N . With that said, I’d still prefer liquid or powder N over the scuba setup. Maybe because I had two family members pass from N 50 and 60 years ago and I’d rather be found that way than with the scuba setup. But I do feel this scuba setup with ocean reef mask is #1 best method for being peaceful with highest reliability than any method out there for many reasons.
 
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Greenberg

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Thanks again Diver K A and everyone. I really appreciate it. So after nearly buying the more expensive mask as it’s suppose to have an even better seal, I found some reviews that some have have said they have a harder time breathing through it than any second stage regulator out there. That one has to inhale and exhale more forceful to activate the second stage. Considering what the mask would be used for I decided Ocean Reef with surface air valve is probably best for me and I think the best. It appears one can tune the OTS guardian regulator but this starts to become too much work.

If anyone is curious, I paid $1,300 total for the entire setup after taxes. I know this can be done cheaper if I had a cheaper mask but I don’t want to risk any air leaking in.

I do feel this setup is better, more peaceful and more reliable than liquid or powder N . With that said, I’d still prefer liquid or powder N over the scuba setup. Maybe because I had two family members pass from N 50 and 60 years ago and I’d rather be found that way than with the scuba setup.
Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for sharing!
Did the $1300 include the tank with nitrogen?
 
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Jpd998

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Yes total price.

$220 for 20 liter tank of 99.9995 N in the US I bought it. Not a lease. Took forever to find. I could have gone with lower purity and save a bit but I couldn’t find it. All the other places I had to make a yearly rental $100 fee for the tank. I didn’t want to go through the headache of that.
 
Greenberg

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Yes total price.

$220 for 20 liter tank of 99.9995 N in the US I bought it. Not a lease. Took forever to find. I could have gone with lower purity and save a bit but I couldn’t find it. All the other places I had to make a yearly rental $100 fee for the tank. I didn’t want to go through the headache of that.
Thank you for your clarification. Best regards!
 
BeBraveBrother

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One maybe simple question for those familiar, but I never used a diving mask and regulator in my life, so:

What is the nose doing during the whole process?
:smiling:

As far as I understood I am breathing through a mouthpiece, but what happens with the air in the mask that I can breath with my nose? Do I exhale CO2 to a seperate "room" through my nose , the space in the mask and is there any risk of breathing in CO2 back from that space?

Thanks for all answers in advance!
 
Greenberg

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One maybe simple question for those familiar, but I never used a diving mask and regulator in my life, so:

What is the nose doing during the whole process?
:smiling:

As far as I understood I am breathing through a mouthpiece, but what happens with the air in the mask that I can breath with my nose? Do I exhale CO2 to a seperate "room" through my nose , the space in the mask and is there any risk of breathing in CO2 back from that space?

Thanks for all answers in advance!
Full face diving masks are fairly sophisticated now. You simply breathe normally. And the mask no longer fogs up!
 
Diver_K_A

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Exactly as @Greenberg mentioned diving masks have become a high tech piece of equipment.
Normally full face diving masks have another mini mask embedded within them that creates a confined area for both the mouth and the nose as you can see in the photo attached.
Theoretically inhaling and exhaling through the nose is treated exactly as the mouth.
 

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BeBraveBrother

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I was wondering about confirmed cases using the diving mask method with nitrogen and found a scientific medical report. The report is attached as a PDF File.

!!! Please beware that it includes colored pictures of the deceased man!!! (and of his lungs)

The mask seems to be the black mask which is described in the original description floating around in this forum (cressi sub genova).
 

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bov

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I was wondering about confirmed cases using the diving mask method with nitrogen and found a scientific medical report. The report is attached as a PDF File.

!!! Please beware that it includes colored pictures of the deceased man!!! (and of his lungs)

The mask seems to be the black mask which is described in the original description floating around in this forum (cressi sub genova).
The blotchy appearance of his skin has stayed with me. Is that what oxygen deprivation does to capillaries? How long after death were the photos taken?
 
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The pdf has been posted in the past. Not many have addressed this in detail so I’ll try. It’s called mottling or livor mortis.

Mottling of skin and blue nails are very common for those dying a slow natural death on their bed. Those who decide to pass away this way, this occurs while they are still alive. It’s as common as the death rattle where when someone breaths, they make a distinct sound.

I nearly passed away several months ago due to a bad heart and barely made it out. My skin mottled but not as bad as the photo, couldn’t breath, etc.. it was very distressing but I was also in a daze where I felt I was hardly in my body. No pain killers or any medication. The most distressing was I felt I couldn’t breath and going crazy.

The skin motling in the pdf I suspect is from low oxygen from how he passed away combined combined with livor mortis that occurs within 12 hours of passing. I have no way to be positive but just my hunch so somebody with more knowledge may know more.

I suspect passing from powder or liquid N would give less appearance on skin if one is concerned about not scaring loved ones. I can say in real life, from my experience, when you see the equivalent skin mottling, it is not distressing at all. The distinct smell is probably what sticks with you and how the body is no longer is moving. You can tell the soul is gone and the body is now just a body if that makes sense.

What’s actually important is not the skin color in his passing but what was actually found in the lings which was called foci. Those tiny red/black dots found in lungs and if they looked under eye lids it would probably also showed same dots. That occurs when the body was suffocated. Same as if someone was smothered or plastic bag over the head. Where one is inhaling or exhaling very hard, where the pressure is building but the lungs aren’t moving.

The pressure built up to such a large amount to create those foci. Just like if you pit your hand over your mouth and tried to breath. There is a pressure that builds up.

There was also a pdf posted several days ago of 4 people who passed away with oxygen mask attached to nitrogen tank for 30-60 minutes. The witnesses reported the lungs struggling to breath. This was probably partly because oxygen leaked in but also because the lungs seized. The way I think of it is oxygen is like libricant, like oil in a mechanical device. Get rid of that oxygen or oil lubricant and pressure builds and builds until may slowly start and stop as in very very tiny gasps from lungs on occasion trying to get air.

What I’m trying to say is the body was passing away to an equivalent of as if someone put a hand over your mouth which is what happens when someone passes away that way. That pressure buildup. How similar of a feeling I don’t know but these foci in the lungs say it is similar. The body or lungs struggle and this will happen if one decides to use nitrogen, helium, argon or whatever in a similar manner.

I believe one is unconscious, your soul is not in the body when this happenswill all this so it is not distressing. Hearing this one may say oh, I’ll inject H or liquid or powdered N, or SN well their is a distressing thing that occurs in the body for all those as well-that I wom’t get into. The body will be in it’s own distress IMO while this happens but you won’t be there to feel it. So again, I believe one is unconscious before feeling all this just like the scuba setup. Those who drown say it burns at first but then unconscious.

There is a video of a pig passing away from nitrogen posted on this forum. I think this is what it would be like for the human body as well. The body just seizes just like the pig did in the video. The lungs in the pig refuses to breath and pressure builds up. I think the soul of the pig left before he fell to the ground while the body kept falling if that makes sense.

Whatever one passes, it’s scary. I believe N gas, N powder or N liquid are the gold standard. I actually believe scuba mask with N gas is superior to N powder or liquid in real world situations. But in a setting like dignitas N powder or liquid I’d prefer. Either way, they are both number 1 or number 2 best ways to pass away IMO.
 
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Bauhaus

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There is a video of a pig passing away from nitrogen posted on this forum. I think this is what it would be like for the human body as well. The body just seizes just like the pig did in the video. The lungs in the pig refuses to breath and pressure builds up. I think the soul of the pig left before he fell to the ground while the body kept falling if that makes sense.
That's what bothers me: if these seizures also happen to humans, then how likely is it the exit bag will stay on your head ?
 
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That’s correct. There has been at least one forum member who did everything correct with exit bag and woke up with the bag partly off. Some other attempts mentioned years ago with similar occurence.

That’s partly why the scuba method has been discussed as it’s fixed to the head. The scuba mask being much less chance of a problem if the body moves around. Just have to make sure you don’t break the seal of the mask. Here is article discussing importance of 100% seal. While it’s for debreather, I’m sure it’s important for scuba mask too. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ted_scuba_technology_Death_Studies_34_291-317
 
Bauhaus

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Just as I expected, with exit b it seems the help of an "accomplice" who insures everything goes well seems to be an necessity.
Seems I have to go for the more complicated scuba setup now :(
How much would everything (using a small canister with N or Ar and professional material) cost together approximately ?
 
bov

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I think you’re overestimating how likely it is that the bag will come off because you’re overestimating how much the body will struggle. @Aap, @Greenberg, what are your thoughts?
 
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In the scuba world, some have used a very thin material hood to keep the seal 100%. If you have a cheap scuba mask you can try that. You can look into that.

I bought the Ocean Reef mask. Some, a small percent have reported leaks if they turn their head too much when diving. You can see this woman break the seal a couple times when she pushes the mask away with her hand. I assume same may happen with some if their mask pushes against an object and stays their if convulsing.
The thing is every method has a risk. It’s all about minimizing the risk. Have to make sure thatthe straps are tied down in correct order, tight enough andno objects for the mask to rest nearby if convulsing.

Even liquid or powder N has a risk if found too early. I have no doubt that the woman on this forum who survived powder N took a fatal dose. Some small percent of people don’t pass right away. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968666/

But regarding scuba method, the OTS Guardian which is $200 more than Ocean Reef has an even better seal. Actually has two seals instead of one. I didn’t buy that because some have said one needs to inhale and exhale more forceful to activate the second stage regulator. That it’s worse 2nd stage regulator out their. One can tune the second stage regulator by a qualified technician but that starts to get too much work for me. OTS created a better regulator which is on their site for a little more money to address this issue but they are backordered right now.

The drager is also another mask that is said to have a 100% seal but cost is even more money.
 
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BeBraveBrother

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Just as I expected, with exit b it seems the help of an "accomplice" who insures everything goes well seems to be an necessity.
Seems I have to go for the more complicated scuba setup now :(
How much would everything (using a small canister with N or Ar and professional material) cost together approximately ?
I am also not sure yet if I will go with the bag or diving method.
I don't think that the diving mask method is much more complicated than the exit bag method. It could only get much more expensive, especially because it isn't easy to find a cheap mask.

For suppliers from germany I can say:
10l nitrogen 4.0 (=99.99% purity) is around 100 Euro as a rent canister (+0.40 Ct per day rent for the canister) and 150 Euro at another supplier to be your own canister.

BAG METHOD:
Bag: 5-10 Euro
Industrial Flowmeter for Nitrogen: 120-170 Euro
Hose: 20 Euro
Tape: 5 Euro
Rubber Band: 5-10 Euro(?)
SUM: around 300 Euro

DIVING MASK METHOD:
Mask: starting from 50 Euro for a used one if lucky/ 120Euro new - up to 1000 Euro
Regulator: Used 70-100 Euro / New: mostly around 400-500 Euro
+ Adapters if needed
SUM: varies a lot dependend on which fitting mask (which might be the most expensive part) 300-1500 Euro


If you have suggestions for a cheap but safely sealed mask, I would appreciate it a lot.
 
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Regarding flow meter, not sure of EU pricing, but in the US a flow meter can be purchased extremely cheaply from amazon.

@bov - as long as oxygen isn’t introduced in the system (either through an air mixture in the tank or as in a badly fitting mask with the helium exit case that took forever), the body isn’t going to be flopping around. It is important to find a position where the bag won’t be displaced upon losing consciousness.
Brain death occurs before the heart stops in this case
 
BeBraveBrother

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The pdf has been posted in the past. Not many have addressed this in detail so I’ll try. It’s called mottling or livor mortis.

Mottling of skin and blue nails are very common for those dying a slow natural death on their bed. Those who decide to pass away this way, this occurs while they are still alive. It’s as common as the death rattle where when someone breaths, they make a distinct sound.

I nearly passed away several months ago due to a bad heart and barely made it out. My skin mottled but not as bad as the photo, couldn’t breath, etc.. it was very distressing but I was also in a daze where I felt I was hardly in my body. No pain killers or any medication. The most distressing was I felt I couldn’t breath and going crazy.

The skin motling in the pdf I suspect is from low oxygen from how he passed away combined combined with livor mortis that occurs within 12 hours of passing. I have no way to be positive but just my hunch so somebody with more knowledge may know more.

I suspect passing from powder or liquid N would give less appearance on skin if one is concerned about not scaring loved ones. I can say in real life, from my experience, when you see the equivalent skin mottling, it is not distressing at all. The distinct smell is probably what sticks with you and how the body is no longer is moving. You can tell the soul is gone and the body is now just a body if that makes sense.

What’s actually important is not the skin color in his passing but what was actually found in the lings which was called foci. Those tiny red/black dots found in lungs and if they looked under eye lids it would probably also showed same dots. That occurs when the body was suffocated. Same as if someone was smothered or plastic bag over the head. Where one is inhaling or exhaling very hard, where the pressure is building but the lungs aren’t moving.

The pressure built up to such a large amount to create those foci. Just like if you pit your hand over your mouth and tried to breath. There is a pressure that builds up.

There was also a pdf posted several days ago of 4 people who passed away with oxygen mask attached to nitrogen tank for 30-60 minutes. The witnesses reported the lungs struggling to breath. This was probably partly because oxygen leaked in but also because the lungs seized. The way I think of it is oxygen is like libricant, like oil in a mechanical device. Get rid of that oxygen or oil lubricant and pressure builds and builds until may slowly start and stop as in very very tiny gasps from lungs on occasion trying to get air.

What I’m trying to say is the body was passing away to an equivalent of as if someone put a hand over your mouth which is what happens when someone passes away that way. That pressure buildup. How similar of a feeling I don’t know but these foci in the lungs say it is similar. The body or lungs struggle and this will happen if one decides to use nitrogen, helium, argon or whatever in a similar manner.

I believe one is unconscious, your soul is not in the body when this happenswill all this so it is not distressing. Hearing this one may say oh, I’ll inject H or liquid or powdered N, or SN well their is a distressing thing that occurs in the body for all those as well-that I wom’t get into. The body will be in it’s own distress IMO while this happens but you won’t be there to feel it. So again, I believe one is unconscious before feeling all this just like the scuba setup. Those who drown say it burns at first but then unconscious.

There is a video of a pig passing away from nitrogen posted on this forum. I think this is what it would be like for the human body as well. The body just seizes just like the pig did in the video. The lungs in the pig refuses to breath and pressure builds up. I think the soul of the pig left before he fell to the ground while the body kept falling if that makes sense.

Whatever one passes, it’s scary. I believe N gas, N powder or N liquid are the gold standard. I actually believe scuba mask with N gas is superior to N powder or liquid in real world situations. But in a setting like dignitas N powder or liquid I’d prefer. Either way, they are both number 1 or number 2 best ways to pass away IMO.
I read medical reports on asphyxiations with the exit bag (helium) and it stated that there were no visible signs on the outer body. Also in the VICE video "Death in a can (Australia)" () is claiming that even the cause of death wouldn't be verifiable if by using nitrogen/ exit bag and the canister and so on wouldn't be found. Found same reports about a scuba/nitrogen report from an irish online newspaper (https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20198300.html) where it also has been reported that there weren't any signs on the body.

So the reason why the man with the diving mask in the hotel room in slovakia had those visible signs (skin, lungs and swollen brain!), remains unclear to me. Could it be, that the prosses of hypoxia wasn't quick enough with him i.e. because of a leaks with oxygen? I don't know....
 

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The pdf you attached does not state what you claim. It states there were no injuries and the cause of death consistent with nitrogen asphyxiation (page 2).

I think there are a few factors or misunderstandings at play. First, with any death there will be natural changes that occur (pooling lividity, changes to the organs that occur upon dying, rigor mortis, etc.). These will happen no matter what. Likewise, for some people not using bags or a correct regulator, lung trauma has occurred.

Inert gas death does not leave discrete or “tell tale” signs, unlike SN intoxication and changes to blood color. In no case would a self ctb with inert gas be confused with natural death, as the tank and bag are present. (Even if removed, it is likely a scuba regulator will leave distinct marks from blood pooling). If they are removed, He and Ar can potentially be detected in the lung gases by GC-MS. Detection of high levels of these is definitive for inert gas death.

While not done, to my knowledge, I suspect if murder was suspected and autopsy done quickly, nitrogen could also be detected as the cause of death due to either trace industrial gases or the lack of exact 80:19 N2/O2 ratio found in the air, though this is iffy and far less definitive than Ar or He.

In the end it doesn’t matter, as no one should be removing equipment after. These threads get lost in minutia that is irrelevant to the discussion (peacefulness or how to ctb with inert gas) and focus on irrelevant factors, such as blood pooling in the fingers after death.
 
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J

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Thanks bebravebrother for the report from the irishexamner. I didn’t know there was another report out there regarding the scuba setup.



Here’s my personal opinion. The man was smart enough to put together the scuba mask with nitrogen combo so I’m sure he was smart enough not to have any air leakage around the mask. So I personally don’t think he struggled to breath through the mask causing the foci in the lungs.
Here is a quote in a comment section on youtube regarding using inert gas. You don’t have to watch the youtube video. Link is just for reference ...


“DONOT USE ARGON !!! i worked in labs with mice and dear god the brain lights up in sever pain and cortisol levels start to spike CO2 is better than argon I can give you papers in pdf form about it I prefer CO2 my self but you need to do a particular amount at a particular rate”

Some studies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6354991/

 
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A

Aap

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Interestingly enough, we are not rats. You are woefully misguided if you feel co2 euthanasia in humans is in any way superior to argon in humans. I almost don’t even know where to begin; this is the equivalent of trying to argue the earth is flat.
 
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J

Jpd998

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CO2 is horrible way to go when conscious. The whole point that was discussed was the effects on the body once unconscious. Each gas has a different affect and article previously posted shows that.
 
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Again, you cannot extrapolate this to humans...at all. The respiratory drive is different between mice and humans. This article is literally irrelevant to any discussion other than the euthanasia of mice.
 
BeBraveBrother

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My "knowledge" up to know was, that neither of the inert gases was affecting the body but the fast and full cut off of oxygen. The alarm reaction, feeling of suffucation is supposed to be absent because of unremaining CO2?
 
BeBraveBrother

BeBraveBrother

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Could one of these cheap masks work?
Whats your opinion?
 

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job1315

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Could we get some comments about cheap masks above?
 

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