Moral question

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Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
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I'm homeless and stay in shelters. One night I had a guy come up to me and started talking about wanting to kill himself. He broke down and started crying after I gave him a smoke. I talked to him about why he wants to die, and what makes him happy. I could tell he wanted to talk.

Suddenly he drops, and hits his head on the ground. He was out, but I slapped his face a few times to try and wake him up. His eyes opened and I asked him what he took. He couldn't say much other then "pills" so I look around for help.

My cellphone is dead, and I'm in th shelter area, so nobody really gives a shit about somebody passing out or overdosing. I'm surrounded by three shelters, so I help the guy up and start carrying him over to one. I banged on the door so they could come get him, but they sent me away because I was yelling? So I carry him to the next one.

I just wanted somebody to call 911 for me, two shelters now have refuse to do that. I carry him to the third shelter which has a detox intake and they accept him. I wait with him until paramedics arrive and hooked him up to check his vitals.

His vitals were ok, but they wanted to take him to the hospital. He refused, so I made sure the shelter had a mat for him for the night. I ditched three bags while I did this. Everything i owned are in those bags. When i got back, they were still there thankfully. But anyway, before I left the guy, he tearfully thanked me. Said I made him want to give life another go, even though we o ly talked for like 20 mins.

I haven't seen him since, but the experience left me thinking about why I did what I did. If I took pills in order to die, I wouldn't want to be saved at that point...but at the same time, the guy thanked me, and I'm pretty sure he regretted popping whatever he did.

Most people out here on the street will step over a body and not think twice. When I see somebody out on the ground, obviously fucked up, I'll at least check on them...but maybe I should of just minded my own business..I'm conflicted about if I'm the good guy who maybe saved a life, or if I'm the bad guy who just prolonged somebody's suffering.

Any opinions? What would you do in that situation? Should I have minded my own business or should I hold onto the part of me that wants to help people?..
 
U

Una Nancy

Member
Mar 25, 2020
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53
Well, since he's thanked you, it looks like he may have regretted what he's done at the last moment. Maybe he's seen a gleam of hope when he started to talk to you and had some company. I'd say you've make the right choice, but I'm as conflicted as you, since I know sometimes I'd just want people to let me go, too.
 
Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
118
446
Well, since he's thanked you, it looks like he may have regretted what he's done at the last moment. Maybe he's seen a gleam of hope when he started to talk to you and had some company. I'd say you've make the right choice, but I'm as conflicted as you, since I know sometimes I'd just want people to let me go, too.
Yea I think I did too. If he never thanked me it would be weighing on me more. I dont want to be some unwanted intervention. If he woke up after falling and told me to fuck off, I probably would have...I just got the vibe he wanted help or attention or whatever
 
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avoid_slow_death

avoid_slow_death

Holding out hope, but considering alternatives...
Feb 4, 2020
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Sounds like you are an empath and, by nature, you are inclined to help others in need. This is NOT a bad thing. Too many problems in the world are because people are too self serving or just generally apathetic to what goes on around them. Whether you prolonged his suffering or not is not what you need to focus on. We each make our own choices of what to do and not do in our time on this planet and we have to live with those choices. Sometimes, it becomes too much and we choose to exit this world because, oftentimes, we feel nobody gives two shits anyways so why bother? Oftentimes, we just need to know that someone does and for most, that renews our will to go on. So, the viewpoint of whether it was right or not is subjective and not up to anyone else except the individual asking the question. We do what is within our nature and move on regardless of the consequences. That is what it means to be human.
 
FreedomInDeath

FreedomInDeath

Ready to leave
Jan 6, 2020
149
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To me it sounded like he did regret taking those pills. Maybe your kindness was the experience he needed for him to see that there are people who care and are kind in the world, not just bitter broken selfish numb people. I am glad you exist OP. It sounds like he did see the experience of being cared about a type of catalyst and maybe he will do the same for others.
 
Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
118
446
Sounds like you are an empath and, by nature, you are inclined to help others in need. This is NOT a bad thing. Too many problems in the world are because people are too self serving or just generally apathetic to what goes on around them. Whether you prolonged his suffering or not is not what you need to focus on. We each make our own choices of what to do and not do in our time on this planet and we have to live with those choices. Sometimes, it becomes too much and we choose to exit this world because, oftentimes, we feel nobody gives two shits anyways so why bother? Oftentimes, we just need to know that someone does and for most, that renews our will to go on. So, the viewpoint of whether it was right or not is subjective and not up to anyone else except the individual asking the question. We do what is within our nature and move on regardless of the consequences. That is what it means to be human.
Well said, thanks. These things are always situational I suppose, but the important part is I always have good intentions
To me it sounded like he did regret taking those pills. Maybe your kindness was the experience he needed for him to see that there are people who care and are kind in the world, not just bitter broken selfish numb people. I am glad you exist OP. It sounds like he did see the experience of being cared about a type of catalyst and maybe he will do the same for others.
Thank you! I much rather see people supporting eachother but who am I to interven unwanted. If people want help, they should get it. If they dont want help, that's difficult but you gotta respect that too.
 
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Quarky00

Quarky00

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Dec 17, 2019
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I would leave the body . You can see no one will help . >>>> FYI @GoodSmaritans and @ProLifers

As for helping others , it's an instinct , even if you're suicidal . The ethics are pretty much the same "will you help" template . It's categorically yes , with the exceptions (are you in danger etc) .

Anyway , 99% of people are potatoes . And people are selfish . We do have a pandemic -- a social one ; it's called "I don't care" . I wouldn't waste my time on people .
 
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waterbottleman

waterbottleman

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Sep 30, 2019
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Even if I tried to kill myself and didn’t want to be saved, I‘d still appreciate that at least one person cared enough about me to check up on me and try to get me help.

I’m sure as a homeless person you know what it’s like to be invisible in society and for people to ignore your existence entirely. It’s an awful feeling (it’s part of the reason I am suicidal).

So you did the right thing, don’t doubt up yourself over that. In fact be proud that you cared about this guy. A lot of people are left in the cold these days who are totally alone, have no one to talk to, who feel invisible and unappreciated by anyone. You showed this guy that you care, and that probably means more to him than you even realize.
 
Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
118
446
I would leave the body there . As you can see no one will help . >> FYI @GoodSmaritans and @ProLifers

As for helping others , it's an instinct , even if you're suicidal . The ethics are pretty much the same "will you help" template . It's categorically yes , with the exceptions (are you in danger etc) .

Anyway , 99% of people are potatoes . And people are selfish . We do have a pandemic . A social one . It's called "I don't care" . I wouldn't waste my time on people .
Fair enough. I dont think that way but I respect it. I live around the worst of society at a shelter, so my environment presents this scenario very often. Most people dont care about you or even themselves. I would say I do though.

If I go to help somebody, I'll risk getting told to fuck off (which I would do) for the chance that they want the help or it can better them in anyway. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to get invested in other people's problems...but if the possibility of recovery is there and wanted, I'll help.
 
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Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
118
446
If it were to happen to a different guy tomorrow, what would you do?
I guess I would have to take it case by case. For another example, i pulled some drunk guy out of a puddle in the middle of the day right outside the shelter. Just wanted to get him inside at least, wasn't trying to be his hero. Shelter wouldn't take him, and when he sobered up later, he confronted me and wanted to fight because I didn't mind my business.

I dunno. I'm sure if I keep doing me, some will hate me and some will thank me
Even if I tried to kill myself and didn’t want to be saved, I‘d still appreciate that at least one person cared enough about me to check up on me and try to get me help.

I’m sure as a homeless person you know what it’s like to be invisible in society and for people to ignore your existence entirely. It’s an awful feeling (it’s part of the reason I am suicidal).

So you did the right thing, don’t doubt up yourself over that. In fact be proud that you cared about this guy. A lot of people are left in the cold these days who are totally alone, have no one to talk to, who feel invisible and unappreciated by anyone. You showed this guy that you care, and that probably means more to him than you even realize.
I appreciate the reply. Yea you're definitely on another plane of society when you're homeless. It's like a whole other planet at night when you go nowhere to go. Plus in canada it's cold as fuck. It's a struggle. I would just live in a tent if I wasn't here, but 99% of us are forced to the shelters during winter.

I hope you're doing as well as you can be :)
 
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O

Otter

Wise
Feb 10, 2020
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Seems like if a person was serious and didn't want help they would pin a note to their shirt saying not to help them. if I was suicidal and people kept helping me in the middle of trying to kill myself, after a while I would be angry at them. like I said it seems if people are serious they should not accept intervention and put a note on their shirt. I know it sounds simplistic but it's a big deal.
 
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Underscore

Underscore

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Jul 31, 2018
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I'm homeless and stay in shelters. One night I had a guy come up to me and started talking about wanting to kill himself. He broke down and started crying after I gave him a smoke. I talked to him about why he wants to die, and what makes him happy. I could tell he wanted to talk.

Suddenly he drops, and hits his head on the ground. He was out, but I slapped his face a few times to try and wake him up. His eyes opened and I asked him what he took. He couldn't say much other then "pills" so I look around for help.

My cellphone is dead, and I'm in th shelter area, so nobody really gives a shit about somebody passing out or overdosing. I'm surrounded by three shelters, so I help the guy up and start carrying him over to one. I banged on the door so they could come get him, but they sent me away because I was yelling? So I carry him to the next one.

I just wanted somebody to call 911 for me, two shelters now have refuse to do that. I carry him to the third shelter which has a detox intake and they accept him. I wait with him until paramedics arrive and hooked him up to check his vitals.

His vitals were ok, but they wanted to take him to the hospital. He refused, so I made sure the shelter had a mat for him for the night. I ditched three bags while I did this. Everything i owned are in those bags. When i got back, they were still there thankfully. But anyway, before I left the guy, he tearfully thanked me. Said I made him want to give life another go, even though we o ly talked for like 20 mins.

I haven't seen him since, but the experience left me thinking about why I did what I did. If I took pills in order to die, I wouldn't want to be saved at that point...but at the same time, the guy thanked me, and I'm pretty sure he regretted popping whatever he did.

Most people out here on the street will step over a body and not think twice. When I see somebody out on the ground, obviously fucked up, I'll at least check on them...but maybe I should of just minded my own business..I'm conflicted about if I'm the good guy who maybe saved a life, or if I'm the bad guy who just prolonged somebody's suffering.

Any opinions? What would you do in that situation? Should I have minded my own business or should I hold onto the part of me that wants to help people?..
You did what you thought was right at the time and what your instincts told you. Unfortunately there are very often no right choices in life, just how your instincts guide you and how you deal with it later.
But it sounds like he was grateful you saved him anyway.
It's one thing to be intellectually pro choice, but another thing entirely to avoid helping someone for fear of crossing their boundaries. How would you have felt if you'd done nothing?
 
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Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
118
446
Seems like if a person was serious and didn't want help they would pin a note to their shirt saying not to help them. if I was suicidal and people kept helping me in the middle of trying to kill myself, after a while I would be angry at them. like I said it seems if people are serious they should not accept intervention and put a note on their shirt. I know it sounds simplistic but it's a big deal.
Yea if I were to overdose I wouldn't be wandering the streets after I took my poison. Plus with the conversation beforehand, I think in this case, i did the right thing
 
waterbottleman

waterbottleman

We are Groot <3
Sep 30, 2019
648
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I would leave the body there . As you can see no one will help . >> FYI @GoodSmaritans and @ProLifers

As for helping others , it's an instinct , even if you're suicidal . The ethics are pretty much the same "will you help" template . It's categorically yes , with the exceptions (are you in danger etc) .

Anyway , 99% of people are potatoes . And people are selfish . We do have a pandemic . A social one . It's called "I don't care" . I wouldn't waste my time on people .
Has society always been like this, is there something wrong with us specifically as individuals that makes us perceive society is like this, or is there something particular to our society in this time that makes people like this?

I remember when I was younger I‘d treat people with kindness, respect, acceptance, and honesty and there was a clear trend with what I would get in return from people. Girls would be uninterested in me, guys would disrespect me, and both genders clearly perceived my kindness and acceptance as me being inferior to them. I also remember when I decided in my teens to start acting like a self centered jerk that girls showed more interest in me and guys gave me more respect.

I eventually stopped acting like that self centered jerk, but that experience fundamentally altered the way I perceive people and since then I’ve been much more aloof and untrusting of people. I’m not mean to people, I am polite to people but in a much more indifferent and toned down way.

Theres a ton of guys who say they experienced this exact same thing. I sometimes wonder if we learn this selfish behavior when we’re younger and we carry it into adulthood. Or maybe we have this “I don’t care” attitude cause we’re so obsessed with our status in the pecking order of society but this mentality just ends up making everyone miserable.

I‘ve noticed there has always been a sharp divide between what people say versus what they do in their actions. People say they have phony shallow friendships and want a “real” one yet they turn down people who are actually real to them. People say they want a partner who is kind and who loves them yet they have a long dating history of flocking to toxic jerks. People complain about the politicians saying we need to throw them out yet every election we vote in the exact same people into office over and over again.

People contradict themselves constantly but why? As someone who is autistic this behavior from “Normal” people has always seemed so illogical and bizarre to me. People don’t make sense and then wonder why everything is so screwed up. How hard is it to just be honest and straightforward?
 
Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
118
446
You did what you thought was right at the time and what your instincts told you. Unfortunately there are very often no right choices in life, just how your instincts guide you and how you deal with it later.
But it sounds like he was grateful you saved him anyway.
It's one thing to be intellectually pro choice, but another thing entirely to avoid helping someone for fear of crossing their boundaries. How would you have felt if you'd done nothing?
Oh it would of eaten me alive if I did nothing. I always at least check on the sick people or super fucked up people, cant help him. Some people just need to be calmed down, save them a trip to the hospital or jail.
 
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Underscore

Underscore

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Oh it would of eaten me alive if I did nothing. I always at least check on the sick people or super fucked up people, cant help him. Some people just need to be calmed down, save them a trip to the hospital or jail.
I once found a junkie having a fit in a Vancouver hospital car park. I ran inside to get some help. They came out and just stood there and shrugged. I guess they'd seen it all before. I shouted at the fuckers till they took him in, couldn't just leave the poor bugger there.
 
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Hollow Point

Hollow Point

A̵l̷w̷a̷y̸s̷ ̷t̸i̸r̵e̸d̶
Mar 24, 2020
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I once found a junkie having a fit in a Vancouver hospital car park. I ran inside to get some help. They came out and just stood there and shrugged. I guess they'd seen it all before. I shouted at the fuckers till they took him in, couldn't just leave the poor bugger there.
I visited east hastings before, it's super rough out there. You did a good thing. Alot of people get used to that being the norm. See a passed out person near the shelter, it's easy to think they are playing the appropriate role of a homeless person..but there is so much going on in a individual. No telling what horrible things have happened to anybody.

Also gotta be careful about being too helpful though..because it sucks to say, but alot of people...most people...at the shelter and the area are complete assholes.
 
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Quarky00

Quarky00

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Dec 17, 2019
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Has society always been like this, is there something wrong with us specifically as individuals that makes us perceive society is like this, or is there something particular to our society in this time that makes people like this?
No , society had changed :wink: It's not "just us" -- this is corroborated by sociology .

People are more impatient , careless , short-sighted . Internet , smartphones , news , individualism , consumerism had all fundamentally changed us ; lack of prospects made people super stressed and irritable ; and the politics of anger is our norm . It's not that things were better in the 17th century , or that in the 1950s people were geniuses and compassionate -- but social angst and anti-social behaviour are really at their peak .
 
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waterbottleman

waterbottleman

We are Groot <3
Sep 30, 2019
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No , society had changed :wink: It's not "just us" -- this is corroborated by sociology .

People are more impatient , careless , short-sighted . Internet , smartphones , news , individualism , consumerism had all fundamentally changed us ; lack of prospects made people super stressed and irritable ; and the politics of anger is our norm . It's not that things were better in the 17th century , or that in the 1950s people were geniuses and compassionate -- but social angst and anti-social behaviour are really at their peak .
Why though? Why are people so pissed off?
 
Quarky00

Quarky00

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Why are people so pissed off?
Well ,
Internet , smartphones , news , individualism , consumerism had all fundamentally changed us ; lack of prospects made people super stressed and irritable ; and the politics of anger
:ahhha:

2008 = 1929 = collapse , homelessness , austerity , food banks , etc .

While we experience fewer wars and rising life expectancy , disasters are magnified and echoed 24/7 ; we are bombarded by instant electronic communication that would make anyone go insane ; objectively decent housing/education/job are beyond reach ; and everything/everyone is a product (for here and now) .
E.g. - https://www.businessinsider.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-generation-k-2016-4

Again , people were not "better" in the past , but they kept some facade of niceties which is no longer a norm .
 
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Eridanos

Eridanos

Confused
Feb 24, 2020
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Why though? Why are people so pissed off?
In this society you are expected to compete with others to be the best. To be the best looking, to have the best job, to earn more money than others.
In a competitive environment like capitalism you are not allowed to help others or you risk to be surpassed and be subjugated. You are expected to use others for your own self interest and only care about others because that will make you appear like a better person. People don't help because they want to, they help because they want social recognition in exchange.

That may not be the norm for everyone but still everyone is in some way affected by this environment of competition.

I may be wrong of course, this is just what I think the explaination is.
 
Quarky00

Quarky00

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Fair enough. I dont think that way but I respect it.
You shouldn't think that way (like me) , and you shouldn't probably respect my point of view :ahhha: (seriously though) --

helping others , it's an instinct . . . The ethics are pretty much the same . . . It's categorically yes
( should = probability not duty )


If I go to help somebody, I'll risk getting told to fuck off (which I would do) for the chance that they want the help or it can better them in anyway. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to get invested in other people's problems...but if the possibility of recovery is there and wanted, I'll help.
You may also risk your own life or freedom . Be careful :heart:
 
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Iloveyouall

Iloveyouall

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Feb 12, 2020
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Again , people were not "better" in the past , but they kept some facade of niceties which is no longer a norm .
I totally understand your feeling but I genuinely think people in the past were way worse. You couldn't rise an army of a million men in few days to kill another million from a neighbor country nowadays. In most places of the world, the idea of slavery is disgusting for most people but it was pretty normal to everyone in the past. Same for racism, there is still racism of course but it's not considered as normal as before. The world is a dark disgusting place I agree but I really think it's getting better. Of course there is a lot of hypocrisy but maybe it's a bad for a good that will come later.
 
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Quarky00

Quarky00

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I totally understand your feeling but I genuinely think people in the past were way worse. You couldn't rise an army of a million men in few days to kill another million from a neighbor country nowadays. In most places of the world, the idea of slavery is disgusting for most people but it was pretty normal to everyone in the past. Same for racism, there is still racism of course but it's not considered as normal as before. The world is a dark disgusting place I agree but I really think it's getting better. Of course there is a lot of hypocrisy but maybe it's a bad for a good that will come later.
I've addressed that previously , to some extent:
It's not that things were better in the 17th century , or that in the 1950s people were geniuses and compassionate -- but social angst and anti-social behaviour are really at their peak .
We can't really look 3000 years back . And we cannot look at single point in time . There's the post-War world and that's the time frame . People were oppressed but there was a good direction in last 50 years or so . I already said some things are getting better (wars, life expectancy) . But behavioural norms aren't . How people treat each other daily .

I predicted someone will raise racism . Brexit , Le Pen , Trump , etc . It's at one of its highest level in recent decades .

I've talked about how people behave . Not about crimes or overt racism or social norms per se . It's about mental state . That impatient careless tone manifests itself across several different dimensions .


* It's not about our social positions (which had progressed immensely!) but is it still "women and children first" , or "every man to himself" ? :wink:
 
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Iloveyouall

Iloveyouall

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Feb 12, 2020
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* It's not about our social positions (which had progressed immensely!) but is it still "women and children first" , or "every man to himself" ?
Good question. I guess we don't know until disasters happen. I feel we would be surprised.

We are trapped in this huge echo chamber where we are watered with bad news and testimony of anti-social behaviors I agree. Maybe I should go out more to see those behaviors with my own eyes. Maybe I'm just naive and delusional and keep trying to believe in something that is dead. I can't help but trust people, maybe I shouldn't for my own good. I can't help but still see light.
 
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Quarky00

Quarky00

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testimony of anti-social behaviors I agree. Maybe I should go out more to see those behaviors with my own eyes.
I experience it first hand . Maybe it's not that common in your area .
  • Are people respectful & fair?
  • Are they patient?
  • Do they think about other people's needs?
SARS2 great example how much of the public doesn't care (not listening to critical orders) . You may call it a minority , but it affects all of us . A thief in a small village causes everyone to shut their doors ;)

I'm sorry but people are ANGRIER and IMPATIENT .







There's an abundance of evidence , these are just several [flimsy] cognitive dimensions , still haven't reached the heavy sociological/societal studies -- anyway , it is real ;)