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Discussion How can you get a child?

F

Fedrea

Specialist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
300
I am not pro-life. You are barking up the wrong tree. I am not taking a "moral" position here. I only claimed that abortion is looked upon more favorably in the Western liberal culture than it is in any other culture. With that being said, there is a difference between blastocyst embryos and a growing fetus that needs to be surgically removed from the body, in relation to the level of intervention required and risks being involved.
A blastocyst is growing fast before implantation and often has something like 80 cells. Differentiation has begun. One could argue, using your line, that both men and women shouldn’t take using hormonal contraception so lightly or be proud of having sex using it. I don’t say I agree or disagree with your position but it’s good to examine our judgements carefully
 
CarbonMonoxide

CarbonMonoxide

Marejeo ni ngamani
Joined
Oct 13, 2019
Messages
369
ACOG changed the definition of pregnancy from something that starts at conception to something that starts at implantation following the invention of hormonal contraception.
It is definitely a controversial topic. My wife had sleepless nights before choosing to use the implant.
People are the only mammals who are capable of creating symbolic systems of knowlege, culture. We are the only species aware of its own mortality, the only species with an understanding of history, capable of self reflection and control of our instincts. We are the only species capable of overcoming our instincts through reason and logic.
I wrote this down in my notebook. It's so good to hear your thoughts coming from another person halfway across the world, almost verbatim! I hope you don't mind.
 
mahakali88

mahakali88

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Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
922
Thanks for answering about if you've known anyone like you described. There's nothing to argue anything about it, as you stated you're pro-choice and don't take personal issue with it, so neither will I struggle with anything about it.



I want to pick this apart a little bit, not pick you apart. Some things are troubling me.

Yes, I see that abortion is treated by many as trivial in Western culture. It's no longer something new, it's been available for over 40 years. Kind of like how the Internet and social media have always been around for many adults and are taken for granted as the norm, as opposed to those who are older and remember a world without it.

I was not aware there was a subculture.

What I'm uncomfortable with here is what's hiding behind the demonization of Lena Dunham and the radical feminists. I dislike Lena Dunham. I might dislike the rhetoric of the subculture you're talking about. But I get the uncomfortable feeling of a new iteration of the old blame of an inherently wicked and stupid Eve for all of man's sins and humankind's punishments. I sense lurking in the background a patriarchal establishment that doesn't have a pill for men to screw with their hormones and bodies. They can stick their junk wherever, and both parties can complain about the discomfort and desensitization of condoms, but the men have no burden to carry, that women have always had to carry. They can always stick their junk somewhere and get off scott free if they so choose. They get hated on for that, too, and I admit, sometimes experience consequences for trying to get off without consequence, it's an oversimplification to believe all of them can. But getting someone else pregnant does not permanently change nor potentially destroy their bodies; for those ten months of pregnancy, they experience zero physical effects. Anyhow, I just sense some demonizing here, not by you but, as before, from a discourse, and I don't see that there's ever been real motivation for men to say, "Fuck that, I don't want to trust someone else to take a pill, give me one so I can take responsbility for my own self-determination and freedom to enjoy sex without the risk of unwanted parenthood." Women always end up being painted the whore for being on the pill, the evil murderess for having an abortion, and the devil in the form of a woman for celebrating getting off scott free herself from her body being an incubator. I'm not saying I agree with the latter, I have discomfort, I just sense a strong imbalance and a paternlistic social dominance hovering in the background, and women taking on more of a social and moral burden than is accurate.
I respect you and I like reading your posts on many different subjects, but I do not want to delve further into debate about gender differences. Yes, nature and biology intended that women carry the burden of having to bear the consequences of sexual encounters with men. Men don't have to bear direct consequences of impregnating someone because they do not have to carry the fetus. I do not know where you live, but women being painted "the whore for being on the pill, the evil murderess for having an abortion, and the devil in the form of a woman for celebrating getting off scott free herself from her body being an incubator" is common in Christian conservative circles, the general attitude in the Western media and pop culture is completely opposite of what you are claiming here.

I am not "demonizing" Lena Dunham or radical feminists, but I find something abhorrent in the attitude "I wish I had an abortion, because abortions are empowering".

A blastocyst is growing fast before implantation and often has something like 80 cells. Differentiation has begun. One could argue, using your line, that both men and women shouldn’t take using hormonal contraception so lightly or be proud of having sex using it. I don’t say I agree or disagree with your position but it’s good to examine our judgements carefully
Again, I am not making a moral judgement. Differentiation has gone full swing by the time a woman decides to have an abortion and medical intervention is required to remove the fetus. I am talking about the level of invasiveness of the method and its impact on the woman's body. Choosing a lesser evil.
 
F

Fedrea

Specialist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
300
@CarbonMonoxide You talked of abortion carrying “the weight it deserves”. I presume you mean a choice that should be available, but should also carry guilt and regret and moral heft. With apologies for having to get so personal in this debate, I would argue that you, as well as your wife, are responsible for the moral choice of using hormonal contraception and the risk of stopping implantation that entails. Conception takes two gametes. By that logic, some on the pro-life side would argue that you should bear guilt and regret for your moral choice to use hormonal contraception
I am not "demonizing" Lena Dunham or radical feminists, but I find something abhorrent in the attitude "I wish I had an abortion, because abortions are empowering".



Again, I am not making a moral judgement. Differentiation has gone full swing by the time a woman decides to have an abortion and medical intervention is required to remove the fetus. I am talking about the level of invasiveness of the method and its impact on the woman's body. Choosing a lesser evil.
Early abortion just involves an antiprogesterone drug. It is later abortion that is surgical. Both hormonal contraceptives and antiprogesterone drugs involve medical intervention, albeit less invasive than surgical intervention

I think the remark that Lena Dunham made was unusual. I think abortion is surprisingly little commented on at all, considering that in the UK about a third of all women will have one, and in the US something like a quarter. I do not make judgements of women who choose to have abortion, even though my assumption for myself has been were I to become accidentally pregnant I would not choose that.

However I do think anyone commenting on it, especially males who will not have to make that choice, should think through their position carefully, especially with regard to hormonal contraception
 
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mahakali88

mahakali88

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Apr 2, 2020
Messages
922
@CarbonMonoxide You talked of abortion carrying “the weight it deserves”. I presume you mean a choice that should be available, but should also carry guilt and regret and moral heft. With apologies for having to get so personal in this debate, I would argue that you, as well as your wife, are responsible for the moral choice of using hormonal contraception and the risk of stopping implantation that entails. Conception takes two gametes. By that logic, some on the pro-life side would argue that you should bear guilt and regret for your moral choice to use hormonal contraception


Early abortion just involves an antiprogesterone drug. It is later abortion that is surgical. Both hormonal contraceptives and antiprogesterone drugs involve medical intervention, albeit less invasive than surgical intervention
Straw man. I do not see where he implied that abortion should carry guilt, regret and moral heft. He explained what he meant quite clearly.
 
CarbonMonoxide

CarbonMonoxide

Marejeo ni ngamani
Joined
Oct 13, 2019
Messages
369
I presume you mean a choice that should be available, but should also carry guilt and regret and moral heft.
This is a perfectly acceptable presumption. However, what I really meant was that in many places it's still a literal life or death choice for the mother. I'm not on a high horse, I'm just sick and tired of people assuming that instant abortion clinics exist all over the world.
 
F

Fedrea

Specialist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
300
Straw man. I do not see where he implied that abortion should carry guilt, regret and moral heft. He explained what he meant quite clearly.
Hmm. I don’t think so. There is at least an implication of moral heft. “I've only seen this cavalier attitude towards abortion in liberal cultures. In most places in the world, abortion still carries the weight it deserves. After all it costs tens of thousands of lives every year.”.

I’m just gently pointing out, is there really such a big difference between the choice to use hormonal contraception and an early abortion? Men may assume they are exempt from making this moral choice of abortion, but perhaps that is not wholly so, if they choose to have sex using only hormonal contraception. Prevention of implantation is not a certainty, but it is a risk
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
5,784
I do not know where you live, but women being painted "the whore for being on the pill, the evil murderess for having an abortion, and the devil in the form of a woman for celebrating getting off scott free herself from her body being an incubator" is common in Christian conservative circles, the general attitude in the Western media and pop culture is completely opposite of what you are claiming here.
I don't seek to argue, I respect and appreciate you and your posts as well. I was noticing things that stood out to me, and noticing my discomfort with what I perceive as power discourses, of which (liberal) Western media and pop culture are influential but not the only voices of many in the greater discourse. I am from the States, btw. I have some education and training in structrual and discourse analysis, and particularly in identifying cultural myths. The loudest voices are not the only dominant and influential ones, and sometimes myths run very deep regardless of what dominant voices say, and can be taken on outside of their domain, such as Christian (the Protestant work ethic is an example, the "productive member of society" myth has reached far beyond the altar and the pews). But I sincerely meant no offense, I was looking at what you said, not you as the one saying it. This conversation has been intellectually stimulating for me, not something that pisses me off or provokes me to feel like fighting, as the thread previously did.

I am not "demonizing" Lena Dunham or radical feminists, but I find something abhorrent in the attitude "I wish I had an abortion, because abortions are empowering".
I'm bummed that you took it as me criticizing you as demonizing when I meant it toward a greater discourse, but I get how you could. As I mentioned, I was picking apart things you said, not picking you apart. Also as I said, I was not aware of such subcultures, thank you for educating me that there are such statements or attitudes as, "I wish I had an abortion, because abortions are empowering." That is troubling. It illustrates to me how discourses can dictate one's self-definition, actions, and what they perceive as right and of value -- just as in, say, Arabic Muslim cultures, it is "right" to subjugate, hide, and control women, and that women carry men's honor rather than men's individual actions determining their individual honor. It's so easy to get caught up into popular social beliefs and feel empowered and free, when they are actually deceptively harmful and subjugating, and resist critical thinking and self-definition outside of a group. Standing alone, thinking alone, and not agreeing to go along is very hard for humans, and in fact can get them killed.
 
mahakali88

mahakali88

Visionary
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
922
I don't seek to argue, I respect and appreciate you and your posts as well. I was noticing things that stood out to me, and noticing my discomfort with what I perceive as power discourses, of which (liberal) Western media and pop culture are influential but not the only voices of many in the greater discourse. I am from the States, btw. I have some education and training in structrual and discourse analysis, and particularly in identifying cultural myths. The loudest voices are not the only dominant and influential ones, and sometimes myths run very deep regardless of what dominant voices say, and can be taken on outside of their domain, such as Christian (the Protestant work ethic is an example, the "productive member of society" myth has reached far beyond the altar and the pews). But I sincerely meant no offense, I was looking at what you said, not you as the one saying it. This conversation has been intellectually stimulating for me, not something that pisses me off or provokes me to feel like fighting, as the thread previously did.



I'm bummed that you took it as me criticizing you as demonizing when I meant it toward a greater discourse, but I get how you could. As I mentioned, I was picking apart things you said, not picking you apart. Also as I said, I was not aware of such subcultures, thank you for educating me that there are such statements or attitudes as, "I wish I had an abortion, because abortions are empowering." That is troubling. It illustrates to me how discourses can dictate one's self-definition, actions, and what they perceive as right and of value -- just as in, say, Arabic Muslim cultures, it is "right" to subjugate, hide, and control women, and that women carry men's honor rather than men's individual actions determining their individual honor. It's so easy to get caught up into popular social beliefs and feel empowered and free, when they are actually deceptively harmful and subjugating, and resist critical thinking and self-definition outside of a group. Standing alone, thinking alone, and not agreeing to go along is very hard for humans, and in fact can get them killed.
Thank you for this post. I hope I did not come off as being argumentative or angry about this whole thing. :happy: I did not take anything personally and I appreciate your kind attitude. You are definitely right about discourses dictating one's self-definition and value systems, and about myths that run deep. You mentioned paternalistic social dominance, I see your point and I can understand radical feminist arguments about abortion as being motivated by the desire to dismantle this dominance/system they see as being oppressive towards women. On the other hand, I think that radical feminists sometimes just harm themselves in order to prove how liberated they are. Some of their actions do come off as being motivated by the desire to show spite to the patriarchal structure and they give an impression of rebellious children, which in my view, just reinforces the power structure they are trying to challenge. Some really go deep into man-hating teritory. I don't know if you've read Valerie Solanas, she is the most extreme example of what I am referring to.

Female victimhood is also one of the discourses that is prevalent in our society, I perceive it as a part of the dominant discourse in the Western world, and as being deceptively harmful and subjugating. I am not trying to minimize all the hardships that women go through, all the abuse and exploitation they suffer; but I see the adoption of victimhood mentality, especially by a certain strata of society (upper middle class career women) as being harmful and disempowering to women as a whole.
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
5,784
Thank you for your kind response as well.

I see the adoption of victimhhod mentality, especially by a certain strata of society (upper middle class career women) as being harmful and disempowering to women as a whole.
Again, just focusing on the words and the context. It's something I've been pondering lately.

This is a tough one for me. I think of it being applied to the BLM movement. Personally, I think it's empowering to call out victimization and speak truth to power, rather than being disempowered. I don't know how else one can call out abuse and not say they've been a victim of it. "Survivor" doesn't change the perspective. There is no word for one who has been a victim and has reclaimed themselves. Any label or adjective focuses either on the abuse or on having been negatively impacted by it. Saying it's a self-harming mentality to me is to deny that one was harmed at all. It's just tricky.

In my ponderings, I've noticed there seems to me to be something in humans that rejects and hates victims. If someone speaks out about being harmed, there is discomfort, and maybe that has to do with the human tendency to respect and be influenced by authority (see the book Influence or my Off Topic threads about influence or manipulation). There's often discomfort for having something called out, and instead of blaming the perpetrator, who is in a position of authority/dominance, and there is a tendency to blame the victim -- the child was acting up and there was no other recourse, the woman was asking for it in how she dressed or where she went, Black people kill each other all the time, feminists are man-hating lesbians/whores/uppity bitches who want everything/want too much.

Could it be that the upper strata of women have a power to be heard, respected and influence that women in lower strata do not, and that's why they stand out?
 
mahakali88

mahakali88

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Thank you for your kind response as well.



Again, just focusing on the words and the context. It's something I've been pondering lately.

This is a tough one for me. I think of it being applied to the BLM movement. Personally, I think it's empowering to call out victimization and speak truth to power, rather than being disempowered. I don't know how else one can call out abuse and not say they've been a victim of it. "Survivor" doesn't change the perspective. There is no word for one who has been a victim and has reclaimed themselves. Any label or adjective focuses either on the abuse or on having been negatively impacted by it. Saying it's a self-harming mentality to me is to deny that one was harmed at all. It's just tricky.

In my ponderings, I've noticed there seems to me to be something in humans that rejects and hates victims. If someone speaks out about being harmed, there is discomfort, and maybe that has to do with the human tendency to respect and be influenced by authority (see the book Influence or my Off Topic threads about influence or manipulation). There's often discomfort for having something called out, and instead of blaming the perpetrator, who is in a position of authority/dominance, and there is a tendency to blame the victim -- the child was acting up and there was no other recourse, the woman was asking for it in how she dressed or where she went, Black people kill each other all the time, feminists are man-hating lesbians/whores/uppity bitches who want everything/want too much.

Could it be that the upper strata of women have a power to be heard, respected and influence that women in lower strata do not, and that's why they stand out?
I think that gravitating towards power and authority is ingrained in humans. That probably has an evolutionary basis - being a part of a clan led by a powerful person with superior strength or intelligence meant prosperity for everyone. People need to trust in somebody stronger than them to lead the way. There is something undignified about victimhood, being a victim demonstrates weakness, being overpowered, or being gullible. People instinctively don't want to believe that those perceived as powerful want to hurt or exploit anyone, so they tend to blame the victim, like you said. In the not so distant past, Cheryl Araujo's case happened and she was absolutely vilified by her community. You are right, there is no word for victims who have reclaimed themselves, and victimhood stigmatizes people.

But the discourse on victimhood has changed in the previous years and some people wear it as a badge of honor.
What I was referring to in my comment about well-off women who claim victimhood is the fact that they are not really victims but are portraying themselves as such in order to get sympathy points, to get an advantage. If you were slighted by somebody, you feel entitled to compensation. With radical feminists who walk on the streets naked with words like "slut" or "cunt" written on their bodies (because they are reclaiming those words), the message they send out is that they are just rebelling against a father figure and they get looked down on as rebellious children which just feeds into the conservative myth that women are out of control and childish when they do not have a strong man to guide them. In this way, they are hurting themselves.

It is very easy to claim that you are being discriminated against, in order to climb the social ladder or keep a job that you could not hold thanks to merit alone. I see this trend in the black community as well (I know this is a controversial opinion). BLM protests very often turn violent and destructive. Some could say that their anger is justified because of systemic racism and police brutality, but in the end, they are destroying their own neighborhoods in these protests, only harming themselves.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Joined
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Messages
5,784
I think that gravitating towards power and authority is ingrained in humans. That probably has an evolutionary basis - being a part of a clan led by a powerful person with superior strength or intelligence meant prosperity for everyone. People need to trust in somebody stronger than them to lead the way. There is something undignified about victimhood, being a victim demonstrates weakness, being overpowered, or being gullible. People instinctively don't want to believe that those perceived as powerful want to hurt or exploit anyone, so they tend to blame the victim, like you said. In the not so distant past, Cheryl Araujo's case happened and she was absolutely vilified by her community. You are right, there is no word for victims who have reclaimed themselves, and victimhood stigmatizes people.

But the discourse on victimhood has changed in the previous years and some people wear it as a badge of honor.
What I was referring to in my comment about well-off women who claim victimhood is the fact that they are not really victims but are portraying themselves as such in order to get sympathy points, to get an advantage. If you were slighted by somebody, you feel entitled to compensation. With radical feminists who walk on the streets naked with words like "slut" or "cunt" written on their bodies (because they are reclaiming those words), the message they send out is that they are just rebelling against a father figure and they get looked down on as rebellious children which just feeds into the conservative myth that women are out of control and childish when they do not have a strong man to guide them. In this way, they are hurting themselves.

It is very easy to claim that you are being discriminated against, in order to climb the social ladder or keep a job that you could not hold thanks to merit alone. I see this trend in the black community as well (I know this is a controversial opinion). BLM protests very often turn violent and destructive. Some could say that their anger is justified because of systemic racism and police brutality, but in the end, they are destroying their own neighborhoods in these protests, only harming themselves.
Thanks for the clarification!

As for the rest...whew! Kinda circles back to my very first response. However, I'ma leave you with your opinions, go give mine a hug (because humans love their own opinions, even the Stoics knew that two thousand years ago), and save this for another thread and another day. Such an inflammatory thread anyway, it was never going to be pretty, but it certainly got more civil and intelligent than I expected, so I think I'll just be grateful for that and gently step out with my skin intact and no one else's under my nails! :pfff:
 
mahakali88

mahakali88

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Apr 2, 2020
Messages
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Thanks for the clarification!

As for the rest...whew! Kinda circles back to my very first response. However, I'ma leave you with your opinions, go give mine a hug (because humans love their own opinions, even the Stoics knew that two thousand years ago), and save this for another thread and another day. Such an inflammatory thread anyway, it was never going to be pretty, but it certainly got more civil and intelligent than I expected, so I think I'll just be grateful for that and gently step out with my skin intact and no one else's under my nails! :pfff:
It was a pleasure talking with you. :happy:
 
GoneGoneGone

GoneGoneGone

Arcanist
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Apr 1, 2020
Messages
598
im not gonna touch the first part but i am going to say that condoms break and no method is 100%
Wow I’m so sorry to be late to the party, I totally thought it was some adoption / kidnapping thread.

To go back to sex ed 101. If you’re horny and cannot practice abstinence, then there are methods.
I knew a couple who used the calendar method, plus she used the pill, plus he used a condom and coitus interruptus. There you go, 4 layers of protection.

Now back to 80 remaining posts to read.
Where is the woman who has had an abortion standing proudly on a pedestal for all to admire?
Chelsea Handler comes to mind, she was very proud of her decision.
 
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S

SuchAStrangeWorld

Wise
Joined
Aug 11, 2020
Messages
258
My children are loved, valued, respected, and live an upper middle class life. I don’t beat them or berate them. I hug them and tell them I love them every day. I’m depressed and get over stimulated easily, but I do my best every day and manage to not kill myself despite my urges.

Tell me what I’m doing that is “evil”
Hey, I see you have been catching a lot of flack for different reasons here and there are a bunch of people who are supporting it too. Just remember that almost everyone here has severe mental illness and are probably not thinking clearly. When they write things like this, it is a result of a skewed perception that is coming from a mind that isn't working properly. Even I look at fucked up views I had in the past that I didn't see any problem with at all. That was because I am mentally ill.

When you had children, you couldn't have known how it would unfold and there wasn't the slightest part of you that wanted things to end up badly. 100% of you wanted things to work out well and you believed you would be able to make it happen. I'm sure if you could go back in time knowing what you know now, you wouldn't take the risk.

Sure, I wish my parents had done things differently or didn't have me at all, but I can't blame them. They had no idea that things would turn out the way they did. They were trying to figure out their path in life in a VERY confusing society and they weren't equipped to make informed decisions. It's like supporting a church that you believe is ordained by God and have no doubt that it is a force for good. Then you find out that the church is corrupt in all sorts of ways and they aren't really good like you thought they were. I don't think those people are wrong for supporting that church, they just didn't know.

We are just a bunch of primates trying to figure out the best way to live and how to make the best choices. No one knows how to make all the right decisions and more importantly, we don't know why we make the ones we do. I just want you to know that I see you and I think about you and your situation. I understand you and the human condition enough to know that you deserve love and empathy and you are far from a bad person. I love you and care about you, and I really do think about you sometimes. There are many people here who feel the same as I do.
 
M

mapletree

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Aug 22, 2020
Messages
163
I’m glad this thread wasn’t about human trafficking (based on the title) but I have a feeling that the people having kids now may just be dying alongside them over the next few decades as things fall apart. Doesn’t seem like much to look forward to but people can do what they want
 
C

checkouttime

Illuminated
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Jul 15, 2020
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Chelsea Handler comes to mind, she was very proud of her decision.
I :heart: her!! you can tell she's a strong person who decides what she wants and doesn't care what other's think. I can relate to that!!

although i thought she got a little obsessed with donald trump, she's very funny. totally my sense of humour!
 
RoseyBird

RoseyBird

Angelic
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Jan 20, 2020
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Hey, I see you have been catching a lot of flack for different reasons here and there are a bunch of people who are supporting it too. Just remember that almost everyone here has severe mental illness and are probably not thinking clearly. When they write things like this, it is a result of a skewed perception that is coming from a mind that isn't working properly. Even I look at fucked up views I had in the past that I didn't see any problem with at all. That was because I am mentally ill.

When you had children, you couldn't have known how it would unfold and there wasn't the slightest part of you that wanted things to end up badly. 100% of you wanted things to work out well and you believed you would be able to make it happen. I'm sure if you could go back in time knowing what you know now, you wouldn't take the risk.

Sure, I wish my parents had done things differently or didn't have me at all, but I can't blame them. They had no idea that things would turn out the way they did. They were trying to figure out their path in life in a VERY confusing society and they weren't equipped to make informed decisions. It's like supporting a church that you believe is ordained by God and have no doubt that it is a force for good. Then you find out that the church is corrupt in all sorts of ways and they aren't really good like you thought they were. I don't think those people are wrong for supporting that church, they just didn't know.

We are just a bunch of primates trying to figure out the best way to live and how to make the best choices. No one knows how to make all the right decisions and more importantly, we don't know why we make the ones we do. I just want you to know that I see you and I think about you and your situation. I understand you and the human condition enough to know that you deserve love and empathy and you are far from a bad person. I love you and care about you, and I really do think about you sometimes. There are many people here who feel the same as I do.
Thank you for this. It honestly nice to hear. I know when people get mad at suicidal parents it’s because they are afraid or sad for the children involved, and it’s not personal. I’m still trying every day. I don’t need to be happy to keep going, just ok.
 
Invisible 73

Invisible 73

I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me
Joined
Jun 22, 2019
Messages
40
You brought them here, that’s evil.

Doesn’t matter how much you supposedly “care “for them because I can argue that’s also selfish. Which it is.
It gives you comfort in having to care for them. Comfort knowing they might be there when you die etc.

Parents have all uses for their kids.
In the US, there is a poor area where parents are known to prostitute their kids for dope.

Just bcos you're a miserable bastard doesn't mean that every parent is evil! The love I shared w.my daughter was the purest, unconditional love I've ever felt! She isnt evil, her existence isnt evil. Her father and his narcissistic abuse is what turned everything evil.

But you have no right to label everyone with broad strokes because of your experience or viewpoint on life!
 
Meditation guide

Meditation guide

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Some women have multiple abortions throughout their life because they seem to prefer it as a birth control method, and some do them as casually as if they are going to the dentist.
And that is no one's business but theirs. Keep the "us" out of my uterus.

only in the Western world women get applauded for having abortions.
They get applauded by the men that impregnated them so they don't have to pay child support or have them murdered. Pregnant women are murder victims a lot.
 
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foxdie

foxdie

Eternal sleep is what I seek
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Aug 18, 2020
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238
I didn't think I'd return to this thread but it's kinda fascinating. I did not see the abortion detour coming. But I'm still struggling to understand the antinatalist position. To me I'm seeing a lot of misogyny, classism and pie in the sky thinking. You can't appeal to modern contraceptives or abortion in this argument because they do not grow on trees. No one can adequately explain how it is definitely a choice, so they just dance around the issue. If you have the opportunity to have sex, stopping yourself is not simple choice, it's like holding in a pee, if you stay in that scenario long enough it's gonna happen. It's like "choosing" not to eat, eventually your body will "choose" for you. I refuse to engage in judging others choices if it's not actually a choice. How is it a choice antinatalists?

It's also kinda humourous how odd the title is I must say lol.
 
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Meditation guide

Meditation guide

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I refuse to engage in judging others
The real motive of anti abortion people is keeping women pregnant and second class citizens. The whole idea that a fetus is a baby is a smoke screen. Never underestimate the number and extremism of all the women haters out there. It is part of the backlash at the feminist movement. It's part of the larger war on women.

The idea that women can't even control their OWN BODIES is pure hate.

It is equivalent to the government telling all people of a certain race they have to be sterilized. No difference. It's saying that if you fit into this group the government gets to take control of your body and what you can do with it.
 
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GoneGoneGone

GoneGoneGone

Arcanist
Joined
Apr 1, 2020
Messages
598
Are you taking that word personally? Sorry I'm still not understanding what is going on. It's just a phrase. It seems self explanatory to me.
Uhm, no worries. Misunderstanding. I thought you meant to reply that the comment should not apply to all women, and I pointed out that the comment already said “some women.”
 
Thinking

Thinking

Wise
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
269
I think simply not having children is a very broad thing. I think it would be better to specify that certain terrible people maybe shouldn't have children, or people who are unable to physically or emotionally support a child.
 
F

Fedrea

Specialist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
300
In my ponderings, I've noticed there seems to me to be something in humans that rejects and hates victims. If someone speaks out about being harmed, there is discomfort, and maybe that has to do with the human tendency to respect and be influenced by authority (see the book Influence or my Off Topic threads about influence or manipulation). There's often discomfort for having something called out, and instead of blaming the perpetrator, who is in a position of authority/dominance, and there is a tendency to blame the victim -- the child was acting up and there was no other recourse, the woman was asking for it in how she dressed or where she went, Black people kill each other all the time, feminists are man-hating lesbians/whores/uppity bitches who want everything/want too much.

This is very true, thanks
The real motive of anti abortion people is keeping women pregnant and second class citizens. The whole idea that a fetus is a baby is a smoke screen. Never underestimate the number and extremism of all the women haters out there. It is part of the backlash at the feminist movement. It's part of the larger war on women.

The idea that women can't even control their OWN BODIES is pure hate.
You are probably right. I understand the sentiment that someone would not want to abort but to think you have the right to apply that to someone else’s body is hard to understand, at least in early development.
 
kqlysrsly

kqlysrsly

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2020
Messages
48
Completely agree. Parents are really crazy individuals.

Playing with life as if it was toys bought on Toysurus.

I mean seriously, who in their right mind can have respect for a parent?
 

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