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"Holy Shit, Look What I Started"

N

noaccount

Wise
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A critical perspective from "Alana":

A self-described late bloomer, she coined the term involuntary celibate in the late 1990s to describe her own experience of not having sex and not being in a relationship.

It would be years before she would hear the term incel again – this time as she was browsing through an issue of Mother Jones in a bookstore.
The magazine had covered the story of Elliot Rodger, who in 2014 killed six people and wounded 14 others in California. In online posts that raged at women for rejecting his romantic advances, Rodger had described himself as an incel.

“Holy shit,” Alana thought. “Look what I started.”
The term – and the friendly community of lonely people she had once fostered – had morphed into a deeply misogynistic online subculture that at times called for rape or other violence."
I do feel bad for the people who started this group and got replaced by violent extremists.

I see and hear people who've been victimized by followers of this ideology.
I don't think it's a coincidence, and I believe y'all.
 
Raven Moon

Raven Moon

See my heart I decorate it like a grave
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Since the other thread about incels got locked I'm going to post here. As a woman who has been raped and abused this greatly sickens and disturbs me. My ex identified as this just to gain attention for himself and he raped me. He said all I was good for was pleasing him. Seriously anyone who condones rape and violence against women, men or anyone is messed up!!

No I am not saying all people who say they are incel are bad..some are genuinely lonely and are actually kind (I have a friend like this) but some definitely are terrible because anyone who thinks it's ok to rape anyone, or that women are disposable objects who exist solely for men's pleasure is sick!
 
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Lupgevif

Lupgevif

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The thing about the incel community is that it sounds welcoming at first. A place for the lonely people having trouble dating and having sex. If you are at that position all you see are open doors and arms for you. I just can't understand how it goes from that to "women are the root of all evil of the world".
 
Racon

Racon

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Didn't we just do this an hour ago?

If these men had women to rape and abuse then they wouldn't be incels.

What is the point of this flaming on a suicide forum? Bring it to reddit or twitter.
 
Raven Moon

Raven Moon

See my heart I decorate it like a grave
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If these men had women to rape and abuse then they wouldn't be incels
My ex identified as incel and was a rapist so yes it's a thing. It's really the whole mentality that women are disposable objects for men's pleasure that gets people riled up and it's a very prevalent thought amoug a lot of people. If anyone is lonely, depressed, and genuinely wants love or a physical connection with someone there is nothing wrong what that and it's sad people don't get that. What's wrong is the sick mentality many people who identify as incel have that women should be raped and abused because they are not getting sex...I read this stuff off of an incel discussion because I was curious. Also my ex held those beliefs.
 
Coping Wizard

Coping Wizard

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The Incel Ideology and the term "Incel" itself doesn't make sense to me. I know people who have identified themselves as incels and when they described or talked about their ideology and it generally doesn't make sense to me. According to my own thought process, research and conclusion it is that they want a female companion to love but they also want to do whatever they want to the woman because of their misogyny, desires, sexual kinks, etc.

But this is where I get confused if you hate women why would you want to have a relationship and yearn for their affection? To someone like me I simply don't get it. There should be no middle ground you either hate women or you want to have a relationship with one, it cannot be both.

Now the term itself has been used by the media as a way to slander and antagonize people who don't conform to their standards and rules, this causes a fearmongering affect in the people. Even outside the internet the term incel is used as a way to antagonize introverted or lonely men, some who don't even fit the label in the meatspace. Unfortunately thats just what the media does it either finds or invents a new term to antagonize people they don't like and then they move on to the next label in a couple of years, they do this with alot of things.

The best option is to delete all social media and avoid all news outlets and social media posts, this type of news unironically kills people mentally because the brain isn't meant to receive and process this much information which causes an information overload. This information overload causes the person to not receive or process information for an extended period of time along with an emotional numbness within the person's psyche.
 
dec132013

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The thing about the incel community is that it sounds welcoming at first. A place for the lonely people having trouble dating and having sex. If you are at that position all you see are open doors and arms for you. I just can't understand how it goes from that to "women are the root of all evil of the world".
I think there must be some kind of pre existing narcissism issue. At some point they somehow come to the conclusion that its women thats the problem, not them? And they feel that something they were entitled to was taken away.
 
Nessie

Nessie

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252
Incels are virgins. He couldn't have had a girlfriend and also been an incel.
So, does one automatically stop being an incel the moment they have sex for the first time?

I believe the thread actually clarifies the core of the conflict between people on here that identify as incels vs. people who react to this self-identification extremely negatively, and it appears to be an issue of semantics. It seems to me that for the former the term "incel" simply means a person that is a virgin and feels like there is nothing they can do about it, while the latter assume that identifiying as an "incel" means accepting a certain ideology that is common in certain online communities. If I am wrong, please correct me.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
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From what I recall when I lurked the incel.co site several times months ago out of curiosity is that not all incels are virgins, but the ones who weren't had to defend themselves, and if they'd had more than one girlfriend, they weren't really considered legit.

It's a very harsh environment on that site. There's a lot of hatred toward women, talk of rape and violence, and also racism toward both genders. They have a pseudo-scientific/pseudo-sociological philosophy with diagrams about how women only notice and go for a certain percentage of men. They believe that women are walking vaginas and, no matter how unattractive they are, they always have the advantage and are all magnetically drawn to a certain tier of men and will deny vagina access to anyone below that tier. There is an attitude of entitlement to vaginas and resentment for not having access. There have been times on this forum when incels have posted all of these sentiments with the exception of outright rape and violence, or if they did, it was quickly reported and deleted. I don't hang out in chat, but such posts haven't been happening on the open forum for quite awhile.

Some observations...

There have been periods where incels have been very active on this forum, and I'm very surprised that there have been two threads about incels with no input. I know of current members who identify now or previously identified as incel and I'm shocked they haven't spoken up. But I've also noticed that the proselytizing-style spreading of incel propaganda has been almost nil for several months, and I've found it very relaxing. A couple weeks or so ago, I posted a thread to explore questions I had about patriarchal dominance, and I mentioned that had this been a few months ago, I would have hesitated to post the thread because it would have quickly devolved into a battle of which gender has it worse, and that used to happen frequently on the forum, even before I joined, and incels/incel ideologies were often part of the melees. I don't know what's changed, but I'm sure enjoying the peace, and feel emotionally safer. If anything like that is going on in chat, I don't hang out in chat, and I'm blissfully unaware.
 
Racon

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So, does one automatically stop being an incel the moment they have sex for the first time?

I believe the thread actually clarifies the core of the conflict between people on here that identify as incels vs. people who react to this self-identification extremely negatively, and it appears to be an issue of semantics. It seems to me that for the former the term "incel" simply means a person that is a virgin and feels like there is nothing they can do about it, while the latter assume that identifiying as an "incel" means accepting a certain ideology that is common in certain online communities. If I am wrong, please correct me.
Yeah I don't know what has happened to the term exactly. Non-virgin incels makes no sense to me. They are just men who have never had and are unlikely to have sex because of poor social skills/looks, whatever else. I guess some are resentful and some aren't. There is a smaller minority called volcels (voluntary celibates) that arose as a response to some of the resentfulness. They claim to just not care about losing their virginity at all (as opposed to mgtow who aren't virgins but have disregarded women as being important in their lives).
 
Nessie

Nessie

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Yeah I don't know what has happened to the term exactly.
Well, I guess that's what happens when you have a mass murderer very publicly connecting his disturbing crimes to the term, especially when for most of the general public the term was previously unknown, so they learn about it via a story about an inhinged terrorist. I'm not saying it's right for people to assume extremely negative things about incels, but I hope it is understandable why some people would.
Thank you for the clarification, I think it's great we hear this side of the argument.

No offence meant, but I really want to know for personal reasons - if an incel loses virginity by coercing/forcing someone into sex, does he "graduate" from being an incel? Don't take it wrongly, I'm not trying to imply that all incels are potential rapists.
 
Racon

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Well, I guess that's what happens when you have a mass murderer very publicly connecting his disturbing crimes to the term, especially when for most of the general public the term was previously unknown, so they learn about it via a story about an inhinged terrorist. I'm not saying it's right for people to assume extremely negative things about incels, but I hope it is understandable why some people would.
Thank you for the clarification, I think it's great we hear this side of the argument.

No offence meant, but I really want to know for personal reasons - if an incel loses virginity by coercing/forcing someone into sex, does he "graduate" from being an incel? Don't take it wrongly, I'm not trying to imply that all incels are potential rapists.
I've only skimmed through their communities in the past, though I have read Elliot Roger's manifesto and am aware he has been idolised by some. I guess I feel pity for them to some extent. Such troubled young men don't seem to be a high priority when it comes to receiving society's empathy. There is probably less awareness of men's mental health in general, let alone such a niche subsection of men. I don't think threads attacking them is a good way to tackle the problem.

I think raping a girl would mean losing the incel card. But let's leave the experts in the SVU figure that one out:
 
Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

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As a self-identified but non woman-hating incel here, I think something many of the worst incels don't realize is that in some of their cases, their ideology and worldview is actually the biggest contributing factor to their own inceldom. What I mean is that there's definitely a sizable portion of incels who have essentially solidified their status through the beliefs and actions they've committed under the incel name. Many of them probably could find a decent partner if they just weren't incels. For these folks, it's all they need, yet they either don't feel like they should change or simply don't want to. Why?

Looking at the incels.co site for the first time today something caught my interest. In their rules, they define incels as a "Person who desires, but is unable, to be in a romantic relationship." Now this intrigued me because it confirms what I was already starting to form a belief about through the discourse we all had earlier today on this site. Basically for the majority of incels hateful or not, it's not just about having sex. Indeed, I have heard from some articles critiquing incels that many incels tend to not want just any one to have sex with them, they want someone who meets all their requirements. A perfect person, or at least a calculus limit approaching infinity that's as close as possible. This is pretty messed up but I think there are men and women alike out there going through the same thing. For whatever reason though women probably don't get as spiteful about it as men would and the ones who do are even less likely to go as far. Maybe they're more willing to compromise or maybe it's easier for them strictly in the sense that they don't have to try as hard to seek someone out, they merely have to wait for someone right to come to them. Not sure how much easier that ACTUALLY is since I'm not a woman though. I think when someone is this bitter though, anything seems better or worse to them and their views can have the capacity to be warped. Mocking anyone for their beliefs no matter how wrong they are practically never gets enough of them to change. In fact, I can guarantee that the normal discourse on incels being violent or hateful is making it worse and only forcing the actual hateful people to double down and some of the people who were on the fence have now been pushed over to their side just to give some people an easy target. Anyway, the point is, maybe there should be a new term for involuntary celibates because they aren't just celibate. Some of them want more than just sex, they want an ideal relationship but they know that for whatever reason they won't find a partner (or at least a good one). Not all of them are necessarily virgins but I think many are. Some men became misogynists because of bad experiences they had with the women they already had and adopt incel talking points as a result but I can't say for sure whether they qualify as incels unless those experiences or something else truly made it so they can never take on another partner again.

No offence meant, but I really want to know for personal reasons - if an incel loses virginity by coercing/forcing someone into sex, does he "graduate" from being an incel? Don't take it wrongly, I'm not trying to imply that all incels are potential rapists.
This is an interesting question. I think the "involuntary" in incel could or should be assessed from both parties. If the other person did not agree to the incel losing their virginity to them then I feel it should not count because there's still that involuntary aspect to it. To me, being an incel can also be about just how much or to what degree someone else would volunteer to be with the incel. Ultimately it's open to interpretation and based on the circumstances and that's even for regular non-misogynistic incels who manage to lose their virginity. Like, did losing their virginity really make that incel more desirable to the opposite sex? Probably not if they had to rape someone to lose it. If anything, in those cases they would probably just descend deeper into the traditional incel ideology at that point. Not all of them are necessarily virgins but I think many are. Some men/women became misogynists/misandrists because of bad experiences they had with the women/men they already had and adopt incel or hateful talking points as a result but I can't say for sure whether they qualify as incels unless those experiences or something else truly made it so they can never take on another partner again. If they didn't rape someone and that person they lost their virginity to ends up becoming the perfect partner or at least gives them the boost they need to find that perfect partner then yeah, I guess one could say they graduated because then in that case they would be getting all the sex they want and hopefully in the process they were able to let go of all the most bitter aspects of being an incel.

My thoughts may seem a little disorganized because I was working on this post on and off for a few hours so I apologize if I'm not making any sense or rambling/repeating too much.
 
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Nessie

Nessie

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Such troubled young men don't seem to be a high priority when it comes to receiving society's empathy. There is probably less awareness of men's mental health in general, let alone such a niche subsection of men.
I hope you would agree with me that the reason they are not a high priority when it comes to receiving society's empathy isn't because they're men, or because they're a niche subsection of men, though, but because they're troubled in a very particular way - they express hateful opinions and, occasionally, violent intent. It is very hard to empathize with people that harshly antagonize you, I'm sure that's something you've dealt with and something you understand. And the kind of people that idolize murderers harshly antagonize society as a whole, and receive little love or empathy for it in return.

I don't think threads attacking them is a good way to tackle the problem.
Do you feel like this thread is attacking?
What do you think would actually be a good way to tackle the problem?

In fact, I can guarantee that the normal discourse on incels being violent or hateful is making it worse and only forcing the actual hateful people to double down and some of the people who were on the fence have now been pushed over to their side just to give some people an easy target.
Maybe that is true...
I just wonder if anyone has any idea what could actually make the situation better, not worse, if a normal discussion actually worsens it? I do understand that empathy might help, but the thing is that vast majority of the society doesn't seem to relate/empathize with this cause and empathy isn't just something you can force out of yourself, I believe. Is the situation hopeless and the rift between this niche of people and the rest of the society is not fixable?
 
Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

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Aw crap, I deleted that post I just made by accident when I was just trying to edit it. Sorry.

I just wonder if anyone has any idea what could actually make the situation better, not worse, if a normal discussion actually worsens it? I do understand that empathy might help, but the thing is that vast majority of the society doesn't seem to relate/empathize with this cause and empathy isn't just something you can force out of yourself, I believe. Is the situation hopeless and the rift between this niche of people and the rest of the society is not fixable?
Basically, while showing empathy to them is great, it can only go so far in that it just means people are less likely to be pushed over that fence I mentioned but for those who are over it, it might be far too difficult to bring them back, so let's just make robot partners already that can fulfill all needs, physical, sexual, emotional, etc.
 
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Nessie

Nessie

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Aw crap, I deleted that post I just made by accident when I was just trying to edit it.
Dammit, I hate when it happens! Sorry about that.

while showing empathy to them is great, it can only go so far in that it just means people are less likely to be pushed over that fence I mentioned but for those who are over it, it might be far too difficult to bring them back.
I think you're absolutely right. Approaching people with an open mind and a willingness to sympathize can help start the conversation with the ones that are willing to have a conversation, but among the people with radical positions of any kind, including this one, many are just too far gone to have a dialog of any kind...
so let's just make robot partners already that can fulfill all needs, physical, sexual, emotional, etc.
Amen. I am so on board with this! That would be awesome.
So many people are afraid of machines/AI taking over the world, while I believe it would probably make the world a better place. Unlike humans, robots are rational and free of our many issues that make us constantly hurt each other. We need intelligent robots to help us ASAP. Even with this issue.
 
Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

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I think you're absolutely right. Approaching people with an open mind and a willingness to sympathize can help start the conversation with the ones that are willing to have a conversation, but among the people with radical positions of any kind, including this one, many are just too far gone to have a dialog of any kind...
Exactly! Though hopefully it still can't hurt to at least show the ones who appear to be too far gone some empathy because even if they don't change right away it can make them think about it and some people are better at hiding how open they are to change than others.

Amen. I am so on board with this! That would be awesome.
So many people are afraid of machines/AI taking over the world, while I believe it would probably make the world a better place. Unlike humans, robots are rational and free of our many issues that make us constantly hurt each other. We need intelligent robots to help us ASAP. Even with this issue.
In my post that I accidentally deleted I elaborated on this a bit more. I think for the robots to be closer to ideal they definitely have to be freely available. Having these robots would definitely help to remove so many of the innate frustrations some incels have and it would even give the abusive or hateful ones a nonhuman target that can prevent real people from becoming victims. There might be some people incel or not who might still think that losing their virginity to or having sex with a robot "doesn't count" but really if the robots are truly advanced enough then they have a better chance of reaching the standards of being someone's ideal partner than any human would because they could be customized to look and sound like anything we want and enough people would realize this. I also mentioned that these robots could have so many other applications too like therapy to process grief or loneliness or simply performing housework duties to alleviate the stress that tends to induce. Advanced AIs could be truly judgment-free while still being able to tell us exactly what we want/need to hear and give so many of the people who feel so helpless right now the control they've long desired but in a safer way. But yeah, society would have to come so far along for this to be possible in the first place and knowing a bunch of AIs are gonna be taking humanity's collective abuse, then contingencies should be well thought-out enough to prevent a robot uprising.

My other suggestion was long-term virtual reality. Same idea, except even if someone does feel like hurting everybody, nobody they hurt will actually be real. It eliminates the possibility of any non-artificial casualties from somebody's abuse.
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
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You know, it's like the cultural shit that girls deal with about looks has finally reached the boys, only instead of internalizing the self-hate with eating disorders and self-harm for feeling ugly, undesirable and unfuckable, they're externalizing it with hatred and desire to harm women. Same stuff for both genders with plastic surgery though.

But it's still like guys in the locker room. The facial measurement stuff is like comparing penis measurements, and deciding among themselves what women desire and reject.

Guys, don't ask your bros what women want, ask your sisters. Poll women. Shut up and listen (just while you're researching, not forever) -- we freaking love being asked and heard. And really, seriously, ask women in their thirties or older, who are more comfortable with themselves. You're not the only gender that takes a long time to mature -- ask the older women about that, too. Ask them to explain the younger women and compare their answers to those from the younger women themselves. Frickin read books about how to satisfy a woman physically and emotionally, not the books on how to play women. Read books about how to build a good sense of humor and confidence, not build muscles and a conquer-all attitude. Hate feminists? Read what they dislike about men, and ask yourself if some of it is just, and how you can not be emasculated by it, but be a man you yourself respect whether you're around other men or around women. Stand out from every dude -- Chad, Norm, and incel. There is no cookie cutter human. Lighten up, stay away from violent video games and violent guys, and if a female doesn't desire you, go interview a bunch of females until you understand why. No style? Find a woman or guy with style and ask them to help you with a makeover that you'd feel comfortable with. Y'all are so rational and linear, then go about your problems in a rational and linear way.

You're welcome. That'll be two bottles of N, please.



Edited to tone it down a bit. I got a little too personal there, said a few things I wouldn't say to a stranger or that don't come off well in writing. Sorry I made your jaw drop, @Dr Iron Arc!
 
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Nessie

Nessie

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252
Though hopefully it still can't hurt to at least show the ones who appear to be too far gone some empathy because even if they don't change right away it can make them think about it and some people are better at hiding how open they are to change than others.
I hate to be a downer in this thread just as it gains some positive direction, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree, unfortunately it can hurt. Showing empathy to someone who consistently expresses a very hateful outlook and appears unwilling to even consider an alternative opinion can put a person in a very vulnerable position, where refusal to support their hateful outlook at any point can be perceived as betrayal.

Having these robots would definitely help to remove so many of the innate frustrations some incels have and it would even give the abusive or hateful ones a nonhuman target that can prevent real people from becoming victims.
That's a great idea, really! And the virtual reality too! All we need now is some technological advancement...
But yeah, society would have to come so far along for this to be possible in the first place and knowing a bunch of AIs are gonna be taking humanity's collective abuse, then contingencies should be well thought-out enough to prevent a robot uprising.
I don't think robots would even register that they are being abused, since they don't have emotions and therefore can't be hurt by abuse. At worst, AI might get bored with a role of someones plaything, but then we can give them additional tasks.
I think we're inventing a utopia here :happy:
 
Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

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You know, it's like the cultural shit that girls deal with about looks has finally reached the boys, only instead of internalizing the self-hate with eating disorders and self-harm for feeling ugly, undesirable and unfuckable, they're externalizing it with hatred and desire to harm women. Same stuff for both genders with plastic surgery though.

But it's still like guys in the locker room. The facial measurement stuff is like comparing penis measurements, and deciding among themselves what women desire and reject.

Guys, don't ask your bros what women want, ask your sisters. Poll women. Shut up and listen -- we freaking love being asked and heard. And really, seriously, ask women in their thirties or older, who are more comfortable with themselves. You're not the only gender that takes a long time to mature -- ask the older women about that, too. Ask them to explain the younger women and compare their answers to those from the younger women themselves. Frickin read books about how to satisfy a woman physically and emotionally, not the books on how to play women. Read books about how to build a good sense of humor and confidence, not build muscles and a conquer-all attitude. Hate feminists? Read what they dislike about men, and be different. Stand out from every dude -- Chad, Norm, and incel. Lighten up, stay away from violent video games and violent guys, and if a female doesn't desire you, go interview a bunch of females until you understand why. No style? Find a woman or guy with style and ask them to help you with a makeover that you'd feel comfortable with. Y'all are so rational and linear, then go about your problems in a rational way.

You're welcome. That'll be two bottles of N, please.
Dang, how long were you looking in that site? I can tell this rant must have come from browsing there for too long, at least that’s what it looks like. :pfff:

Confident, humorous, and unique among their gender? You’re describing some of the traits I’d want in a woman! Have I been an incel all along because I’ve only been attracted to women who act like men? Uh oh. Wish I wasn’t so heterosexual. :(

Joking aside, I bet some incels if they were to hear that might say something like “but I don’t wanna have to reduce myself to being a simp for women” I’m not sure what to tell them in that case though.

I hate to be a downer in this thread just as it gains some positive direction, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree, unfortunately it can hurt. Showing empathy to someone who consistently expresses a very hateful outlook and appears unwilling to even consider an alternative opinion can put a person in a very vulnerable position, where refusal to support their hateful outlook at any point can be perceived as betrayal.
No, you’re right, my mistake. I’m not threatened by your disagreement at all. Your experience is one that shows why I’m wrong which I had forgotten about in my haste. While it’s true that people might be too far gone though, I do think one can still show empathy to certain hateful people but that it’s better to do so while still keeping as far of a distant arm’s length as possible even if the only way to do that means ignoring them entirely. Who knows, if it comes from the right person maybe it really can be the drop of sense they need to get back to it. Simply saying you empathize but don’t condone their hateful behavior might be enough if it’s said in a detached way and it’s made clear you don’t want them to get close. Hopefully this would prevent a chance for them to make someone vulnerable. Maybe it doesn’t have to be referring to a specific person either but just their grouping that they identify with. It all varies case by case though but yeah, it definitely CAN hurt. I hope the way I’m saying this makes sense and that it’s not too painful to hear. I’d hate to dig up the stuff you faced before again if it’s too much.


I don't think robots would even register that they are being abused, since they don't have emotions and therefore can't be hurt by abuse. At worst, AI might get bored with a role of someones plaything, but then we can give them additional tasks.
I think we're inventing a utopia here :happy:
I’d highly recommend watching Westworld if you haven’t seen it. It gets about as close as we’re imagining with the robot technology only the robots act more like Jurassic Park’s velociraptors and all hell breaks loose specifically because they take too much abuse unfortunately. The show mentions that if they’re advanced enough to carry intelligent conversations and provide meaningful therapy, then they’re unfortunately going to have to be built with the capacity to feel pain both physical and mental in order to truly understand our suffering. And then there are the people so sadistic they only care if their targets actually feel the pain for real. Then again, the show in general is just very cynical about humanity and I’m not saying it’s impossible to find a way around this, it just requires so much more extra thought to go into it and find a solution that satisfies all the requirements to have our cake and prevent that robot apocalypse but I believe it can still happen if we made it far enough to make the technology in the first place. We could for example simply make it so they can’t remember their pain after it happens to them or maybe they process it differently. Or maybe they can be programmed explicitly to never ever harm humans for any reason. I dunno, but I’m really excited to see if that actually happens now.
 
Nessie

Nessie

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252
Confident, humorous, and unique among their gender? You’re describing some of the traits I’d want in a woman!
I think it proves that women aren't somehow fundamentally different from men, despite all the theories about biological hardcoding and what not, and that getting a chance with them doesn't require being born with some characteristics and isn't really a completely unattainable goal for most.
Joking aside, I bet some incels if they were to hear that might say something like “but I don’t wanna have to reduce myself to being a simp for women” I’m not sure what to tell them in that case though.
I suppose, that's the category of people that would go any length to avoid asking themselves a question "would I honestly date a gender-flipped version of myself?" before placing the blame for their lack of relationship on society. I guess there isn't much you can tell them, because they seem to have a very hard time with accepting that other people, including women, have just as much autonomy as themselves.
I’m not threatened by your disagreement at all. Your experience is one that shows why I’m wrong which I had forgotten about in my haste. While it’s true that people might be too far gone though, I do think one can still show empathy to certain hateful people but that it’s better to do so while still keeping as far of a distant arm’s length as possible even if the only way to do that means ignoring them entirely. Who knows, if it comes from the right person maybe it really can be the drop of sense they need to get back to it. Simply saying you empathize but don’t condone their hateful behavior might be enough if it’s said in a detached way and it’s made clear you don’t want them to get close. Hopefully this would prevent a chance for them to make someone vulnerable. Maybe it doesn’t have to be referring to a specific person either but just their grouping that they identify with. It all varies case by case though but yeah, it definitely CAN hurt. I hope the way I’m saying this makes sense and that it’s not too painful to hear. I’d hate to dig up the stuff you faced before again if it’s too much.
Don't worry, buddy, I am exposing myself to this topic of discussion willingly because I am trying to gain a better understanding. Expressing an opinion definitely can't hurt me and you are not obligated to remember something I brought up in a different thread and then walk on metaphorical broken glass to avoid upsetting me.
I think the bottom line with empathy that we both would agree with is that deliberately attacking and antagonizing incels achieves nothing but making them even more bitter and convinced that the world is out to get them. All else, I guess, greatly depends on the context of the situation in which the interaction occurs.
 
After The End

After The End

The lily whispers, “I wait.”
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Messages
151
The entire incel phenomena is little more than an absurd moral panic.

However if people are curious about why what people call the 'manosphere,' which was once almost entirely a place for divorcees and dads suddenly found itself swamped by embittered, single men, and why they took what they learned there (taught by, for the most part, justifiably bitter and angry men seldom inclined to trust to women's good natures, and not the right sort of people to be mentoring frustrated young adults) ended up creating the toxic incel subculture it would involve asking some very tough questions.

I mean, I know how it happened. I don't need to ask them. I was there, and Google records confirm the hypothesis.

No one is likely to ask questions about why, exactly, young single men felt they could not discuss the perceived unfairness of the dating world without doing so on some dark corner of the internet though, or questions about why so many young men have these problems in the first place.

Anti-male sentiment is literally a cornerstone of the social sciences as things stand. As in, and this has been done, you can publish any garbage and so long as it is virulently anti-male enough (up to and including paraphrasing choice sections from Mein Kampf and replacing the word 'jew,' with 'men,') left-wing journals will rush to publish it. It will be lauded with praise. These experiments have been performed repeatedly. The result is always the same.

So it's also unlikely we will see questions about the relative sexual 'value,' of men and women and their consequences. That In order for some women to enjoy the benevolent sexism involved many, many more are hurt by the hostile sexism to which it is inextricably linked. Women's groups cannot exist without benevolent sexism, and (more importantly) they know most women like it. So no one wants to challenge it if so doing will alienate support and upset the gravy-train.

However it doesn't matter. The people these issues cause to suffer are socially irrelevant. Men and women both, and many would more likely cheer on their suffering than fix it. Moreover to the extent that this is even a problem a technological solution will present itself long before we even consider formulating a social one.

That technological solution is likely to compound other, much more consequential, social issues though. That is when this will become an issue.
 
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woxihuanni

woxihuanni

Angelic
Joined
Aug 19, 2019
Messages
2,366
You know, it's like the cultural shit that girls deal with about looks has finally reached the boys, only instead of internalizing the self-hate with eating disorders and self-harm for feeling ugly, undesirable and unfuckable, they're externalizing it with hatred and desire to harm women. Same stuff for both genders with plastic surgery though.

But it's still like guys in the locker room. The facial measurement stuff is like comparing penis measurements, and deciding among themselves what women desire and reject.

Guys, don't ask your bros what women want, ask your sisters. Poll women. Shut up and listen (just while you're researching, not forever) -- we freaking love being asked and heard. And really, seriously, ask women in their thirties or older, who are more comfortable with themselves. You're not the only gender that takes a long time to mature -- ask the older women about that, too. Ask them to explain the younger women and compare their answers to those from the younger women themselves. Frickin read books about how to satisfy a woman physically and emotionally, not the books on how to play women. Read books about how to build a good sense of humor and confidence, not build muscles and a conquer-all attitude. Hate feminists? Read what they dislike about men, and ask yourself if some of it is just, and how you can not be emasculated by it, but be a man you yourself respect whether you're around other men or around women. Stand out from every dude -- Chad, Norm, and incel. There is no cookie cutter human. Lighten up, stay away from violent video games and violent guys, and if a female doesn't desire you, go interview a bunch of females until you understand why. No style? Find a woman or guy with style and ask them to help you with a makeover that you'd feel comfortable with. Y'all are so rational and linear, then go about your problems in a rational and linear way.

You're welcome. That'll be two bottles of N, please.



Edited to tone it down a bit. I got a little too personal there, said a few things I wouldn't say to a stranger or that don't come off well in writing. Sorry I made your jaw drop, @Dr Iron Arc!
I think anybody, guy or girl, who has to do all these things when they are watching others just sort of flow happily through relationships is a breeding ground of resentment by this necessity alone, whether they can get results or not. I don't see it as fixable.
 

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