[Method] Guns/firearms megathread

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thrw_a_way1221221

thrw_a_way1221221

Angel of Choice
Aug 30, 2018
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Hello all, I'm thrw_a_way1221221, or you can call me TAW122 if that's easier for you. In this thread, here is all the information in regards to ctb'ing via a gun/firearm.

Everyone who is suggesting or choosing to ctb via 'N' and 'A' and 'H', that's cool. However, this thread is about GUNS (Not biceps) so.

First and foremost. The obvious.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/

According to a 1997 study from the University of Harvard, Firearms wield a 82.5% success rate. Where as drugs have a 1.5% SUCCess rate (C what I did there)? Now of course, if you're not American, it's pretty much impossible to get a reliable gun. Although black powder is a thing, and I will get into that, because you know, I think renaissance festival enthusiasts are pretty cool (It's a joke laugh). Okay. Anywho. Let's talk guns.

I think that there has been some misconceptions with guns and reliability.

http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/firearms/reliability (Over 90%)
https://everytownresearch.org/firearm-suicide/ (90%)
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm (Suicide by firearm accounted for like 49% of all American suicides in 2015)
http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bal-te.brain05oct05-story.html (Only 5% survive a gunshot to the head)

Drugs.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics/drug-poisoning-us

It is worth noting that with only 5,465 actually succeeding in suicide using drugs, it means there were 42 ED visits for every successful suicide. Sobering odds of success, and there are probably lots of attempts that don't even end up in hospital.
5,465 OUT OF 228,366.

'But TAW122 I can get N.'

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/us/06ttdrug.html

While a totally old article, it still makes valid points and has correctly predicted trends in the United States. N is being manufactured less and less, and the legal demand for it just is not there. So yes. I'm sure they still use it in Mexico and other third world countries. It is also expensive. Are you truly ready for the painstaking and irritating time of finding a dark market, finding a reliable seller, and risking criminal prosecution (such as being intercepted by customs and all that shit)?

'But TAW122, I cannot purchase guns, I R not American'

In the UK, France, Italy, Poland, Czech Republic, and Serbia, you can purchase black powder replicas without a license.

Germany and Spain won't let you. Sorry ya'll if you live there. (Try moving to another country in Europe or so if possible.)


Guns beat drugs every day of the week. Sorry guys. When it comes to reliability. This is how it works. Now. Before we get into the joys of muzzle loading and you renaissance festival lovers, we're going to discuss for everyone in North America.

If you live in the US and do not live in California, Illinois, Oregon, Washington, or New York, and you have not committed a felony, and have not broken ATF regulations. You can purchase a gun. Congratulations.

plz read the laws and make sure you follow them okay, thanks guise

If you're going to catch the bus with a firearm in the US or Canada, using anything short of a shotgun is not really reliable (unless you are experienced with firearms and know how to shoot it well, where to aim, steady hands, etc).

'But TAW122, I have a .44 revolver/only have access to a handgun.'

If you can afford a shotgun, you should REALLY consider buying one. Plus, I believe in many states long guns (aside from the anti-gun, 2A hating states) are generally easier to come by. I live in NC so I have the opposite problem (NC has a pistol purchase permit law which is a holdover from the Jim Crow era and only serves to inconvenience people to buy handguns).

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog...otguns/Maverick/Maverick+88+12GA+18.5+CYL+6RD

This bad boy costs UNDER $200 (as of current price). This is a fully functional and god-tier shotgun. The coolest part about owning a shotgun is when you cock it. It's just a sexy sound.

'But TAW122, how do I buy a gun from le Internet?'


TL;DR - Your gun is shipped to a nearby guy who has a FFL. He holds the gun. You go to his place. He does the background check. You leave with your firearm.

'But ammo'

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/656_2081/products_id/60359

This is the only round you need. This is overkill and generally good if you can get it. However, birdshot does work too, and I personally have #4 shot, which will still be sufficient especially at point blank range.

'But TAW122, I am a minor'

Well, you shouldn't own a firearm in the first place. Wait until you are an legal adult (18 in the US), and then move out and/or go and buy one.

'But TAW122, I have never shot one before'



Watch some youtube videos, go to a local range where you live or something.

'But TAW122, I live in a state with harsh gun laws'

Muzzle Loaders and Black Powder. READ EM.

'But TAW122, I am an adult, yet live with my parents'

If you buy the firearm online and have it shipped to your FFL, it should literally take 30 minutes for a background check to be completed. You can be in and out in 30 minutes. EZ PZ.

'But TAW122, I can't do that.'

Muzzle Loaders do not require an FFL. You can have shipped right to your front door.

'But TAW122, black powder/muzzle loading when?'


It is just a bit more complicated, but with enough guides and videos on the Internet, I believe you should be able to figure it out.

'TAW122, plz make a recommendation on a firearm for me'

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog...ons+P1060+Kentucky+Pistol+Percussion+50cal+10

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/97060/Mossberg+PATRIOT+20+308+Y+WAL


These are just a few examples (see above).

'But TAW122, you said not to use a handgun nor a rifle'

The first example is not a handgun. It's a hand cannon. There is a difference.

'But TAW122, I live in Europe, I can't buy my guns online'

There are many gun stores in the UK that will allow you purchase REALLY overpriced renaissance festival cosplay equipment. Remember, when you go into the gun store, you're buying it because you're going to be Ollie Cromwell or Henry the 8th or something. Act enthused and passionate.

'But TAW122, I live in East Asia (China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc.)'

Gun ownership in Asia, especially in East Asia is very restricted and civilian ownership is pretty much banned.

'But TAW122, I live in Oceania, (Australia, New Zealand, Polynesia, Micronesia, etc.)'

Afaik, @stargazer has mentioned that is it very difficult to legally obtain a firearm in those countries.

'But TAW122, in the UK, licenses, licenses, licenses'

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/back-to-black-72074

You must demonstrate a good reason for having one. Possession of, and intent to use, a gun that is only proofed for black powder is a good reason.

'But TAW122, you did not list my country, or give me adequate information.'


Ask away and I will do my best to answer them.

'TAW122, where do I aim?'

See diagram below:



The happy place is the Medulla Oblongata (I like to call it, the Medusa Origin just for the luls) aka the brain stem. Once it is hit and destroyed, death is instantaneous/near instantaneous.
 
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TiredHorse

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I'm sure I'll chime in more as the thread progresses, and generally make my usual verbose nuisance of myself, but I'll start with this:

Hollywood representations of gun suicides are a very, very bad template to follow. Shooting yourself in the temple, or holding the gun under your chin, is a BAD idea, for either pistol or long-gun attempts. The odds are good you won't hit the all-important brainstem, but will instead blow out your frontal lobe and end up a vegetable. Some people have even blown off the entire front of their face and lived --and been able to survive without a life support machine. If you think your life is bad now...

These Hollywood aimpoints are probably the majority of why gun suicide statistics show only an 82.5% success rate rather than 100%.

I'll collect a few more thoughts and be back later.
 
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TiredHorse

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Handguns are ok though, right? I mean I can't see myself even being able to use a shotgun.
Handguns are perfectly functional, with the caveat that you need to use a large enough caliber. Technically speaking, any gun can work, but below a certain size threshold your chances of success drop significantly.

Modern handguns:

@Threads's preference for a .357 is well founded. A .357 is the benchmark against which all other calibers are measured for "stopping power."

Gun calibers can be extremely confusing --the more you look, the more confused you'll get-- but a good rule of thumb could be:

Revolver: anything .38 Special (marginal! --see note under ammunition) or larger --.357, .44, .45 Colt, .45ACP, etc.
Semiautomatic: anything 9mm or larger --.40, 10mm, .357Sig, .45

Avoid in either type of pistols: .22, .25, .32, .380, .38ACP. Will some of these smaller calibers work? Yes --technically. I have a .32 Auto that is likely to be my choice since it'll leave less mess than my .45ACP. The .380, aka 9mm Largo, is a good round, especially with modern ammo. BUT, you had better be very confident of your aim (I have shot competitively). If you are reading this thread with even a shadow of a doubt about where you need to aim, you should not look at these smaller calibers.

Revolver or semiautomatic?:

Revolvers are mechanically simpler and often attract less attention during purchase. You can also find them with a 2" "snub nose" barrel that makes them very easy to handle.

Semiautomatics have become far more common than revolvers, so might be easier to acquire, but they are more mechanically complex.

And once again, Hollywood is a shitty place to learn about how to use either.

Ammunition:

Always, always, always use hollowpoints, sometimes abbreviated in conversation and on the box itself "JHP" (Jacketted Hollow Point). JHPs deliver all the kinetic force of the bullet in as short a distance as possible. I.e., into your head, rather than into the wall on the other side of you. The brand doesn't matter; they all work.

If you are using a .38 Special revolver, which is marginal, look for ammunition labled "+P" or "+P+". These are designations meaning the ammunition has been loaded with more powder than the standard ammunition, and thus will deliver more power.
 
johnny

johnny

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When it comes to a shotgun, how exactly would you hold it so it is positioned correctly in your mouth? This has always seemed awkward to me.

And where can you go to practice shooting a shotgun? Looks like indoor ranges don't let you use them?
 
johnny

johnny

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No. 45 ACP typically comes in a handgun known as a M1911.

I would avoid semi-autos. As Tiredhorse said. A .357 is the benchmark against which all other calibers are measured for "stopping power." Can you use a .357 Sig or .45? Yeah. You can. If you absolutely must use a semi-auto I would try to use 10MM or .45 ACP, my preference being the former.

If hypothetically someone only had access to a .45, they'd be better off shooting themselves in body of water (Up to their waist), and after taken several aspirin. That way even if they do fail, they will bleed out and likely drown in a body of water.
Sorry I'm not really understanding this. I thought a .45 would be the best handgun since it's the largest bullet? Your'e saying a .357 would be better?
 
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TiredHorse

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Aw shucks, @Threads! That's giving us .45 fanatics kind of a rough time, isn't it? :-)

As Threads says, .45ACP is a rare round for revolvers. You can find them, typically for use in competitive shooting, but they're enough of a specialty that you probably don't want to bother. If you want something bigger than .357 in a revolver, you could try .45 Colt, which is the more powerful, revolver-specific ancestor to .45ACP.

As I said, calibers can get confusing. With only a few exceptions, revolvers and semi-autos take completely different calibers, despite there being apparent similarities. .45ACP and .45 Colt are completely different calibers, and not even remotely interchangeable.

If you're set on using a semiautomatic, 10mm is a damned powerful round --but again, they aren't very common, despite how much hype the arms industry tried to give them a couple decades ago. A 9mm hollowpoint will do the trick, as will a .40 or a .45ACP.
 
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TiredHorse

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.357 is the base I would use. If I was using a handgun for suicide, I would use .454 Casull
Gimminy Christmas. Well, yeah, .454 Casull would sure get the job done. So would a hand grenade clenched in your teeth...

(For those who are getting lost by Threads and I geeking out, .454 Casull is an insanely powerful revolver round, often used in bear hunting.)

But I can't argue with @Threads: as much as I prefer other calibers, for any number of reasons that are mostly irrelevant here, the bottom line is that you can't go wrong with a .357 revolver.
 
thrw_a_way1221221

thrw_a_way1221221

Angel of Choice
Aug 30, 2018
2,752
10,252
And once again, Hollywood is a shitty place to learn about how to use either.
Yes I second this. When I first delved into firearms, I too, was poisoned by the Hollywood koolaid. However, thanks to research as well as talking to some people about firearms from a hobby pov (point of view), a few years ago, I've learned a lot.
 
thrw_a_way1221221

thrw_a_way1221221

Angel of Choice
Aug 30, 2018
2,752
10,252
P226 is a fine weapon I think for this, mine is in .40 S & W load
Yes and I believe with pistols, it does require more precision, such as the right angle and location to be near 100% success.

Here's another diagram for those wondering where the brainstem is relative to the other features of your head:

View attachment 4213
This is a better image than the one posted.
 
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TiredHorse

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A shotgun is much cheaper and easier to obtain. With basic tooling and watching a couple youtube guides, you can replace the stock of a maverick 88 with a pistol grip, which would make it much easier to use.
If you want to go really cheap, you can buy a used, single-shot shotgun (e.g. an old Iver Johnson), and chop short both the barrel and the stock. BE AWARE that you will be committing a FELONY if you do so --the Feds frown very seriously on shortening long guns-- but you can pretty easily make yourself a single-shot 12ga pistol.

Threads and I can spend hours splitting hairs on minimum caliber for ctb, but I agree that yes, the P226 is a very fine weapon, and the .40S&W is a perfectly adequate round for the job.

I very much hope more that more knowledgeable people speak up about European ownership and procurement of firearms. It's something I know next to nothing about.
 
johnny

johnny

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Dead_Inside

Dead_Inside

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So- is it “normal” to be getting hollow point bullets? I obviously don’t want to get any sort of questions or problems.... so is it weird if I just come into a gun store buy a gun and some hollow points and just head on out? Sorry probably a stupid question but that’s basically what I would be doing.
 
thrw_a_way1221221

thrw_a_way1221221

Angel of Choice
Aug 30, 2018
2,752
10,252
I very much hope more that more knowledgeable people speak up about European ownership and procurement of firearms. It's something I know next to nothing about.
Also, an additional bit of info is that my family is from East Asia (and immigrated to the US a few decades ago) so gun ownership there is heavily restricted, if not, outright banned. So if anyone lives in East Asia, then they're pretty much SOL in terms of legally obtaining or gaining easy access to firearms (unless you are in the military -- but that's another story).

Furthermore, yes, if anyone else in addition to Threads and TiredHorse has extensive firearms knowledge, feel free to chime in too.
 
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ReadyasEver

ReadyasEver

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Johnny, think ballistics and physics. I am long time gun owner, hunter, range guy. The .45 is a large round but it travels slower than the .357. The .357 increased velocity more than compensated for its lighter bullet weight, thus delivery more energy on impact. The shock waves delivered on impact by a bullet can in itself deliver a fatal damage to tissue without actually striking it sometimes.
 
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TiredHorse

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Right, so the higher caliber, the better, correct? That's what I always thought. So a .45 would be better than a .357?
Sadly, it's more complex than that. The .357 is the more powerful round because it has a higher velocity. The .45 is a bigger chunk of lead but it moves much slower.

The .45ACP round is often jokingly referred to as a "bathtub" because being hit by one is like having a bathtub dropped on you. It isn't that it's moving especially fast, it's that it's so damned heavy. By comparison, nobody really jokes much about the .357Mag...

(ETA: @ReadyasEver beat me to it.)
 
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Dead_Inside

Dead_Inside

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It's normal as can be. All of my firearms have hollow point rounds.

You should have no problem going to a gun store and just saying.

'hey bro, gimmie a case of 9mm hollowpoints'
Awesome thank you. I guess I feel like everyone can just tell I am going to kill myself ... lol. Paranoid.
 
johnny

johnny

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Ok, sorry i think I'm getting it now. So a 44 is better than a 357 then.

Another dumb question for handguns: I've only ever shot a revolver at a range and there was a lot of recoil. When you are shooting at point blank inside the mouth at the brain steam, would the recoil have any effect on the aim? Or would the bullet have already left the barrel by then?
 
johnny

johnny

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Johnny, think ballistics and physics. I am long time gun owner, hunter, range guy. The .45 is a large round but it travels slower than the .357. The .357 increased velocity more than compensated for its lighter bullet weight, thus delivery more energy on impact. The shock waves delivered on impact by a bullet can in itself deliver a fatal damage to tissue without actually striking it sometimes.
Right, but when it comes to this, isn't the goal to do as much damage as possible? For example on this chart it looks like the .45 causes the most damage?

 
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TiredHorse

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Right, but when it comes to this, isn't the goal to do as much damage as possible? For example on this chart it looks like the .45 causes the most damage?
Entry and exit holes only tell part of the story.

1) Spend some time looking at ballistic gellatin tests of the different calibers.
2) There's no telling what type of bullet was used to make those holes.
 
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TiredHorse

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I'm going to risk @Threads's wrath here and --to annoy the rest of you all-- get a bit verbose.

.357Mag is the gold standard of what is popularly known as "stopping power." This is a hazy and arbitrary yardstick of what it takes for a cop to shoot a bad guy and have them go down and stay down. It is also a hotly contested yardstick, even if all of us gun-nuts agree that .357Mag is still the datum.

.357Mag won its place as the gold standard fair and square, but it won it at a time when most cops carried revolvers. Semi-autos --and therefore 9mm, .45ACP, and a host of other modern rounds-- weren't in the running. The primary contestant was the .38 Special, which is much less powerful, and thus didn't have a chance in the competition.

It should be pointed out that the military has never used the .357Mag. It has always (in the last 70 years) used the .45ACP and 9mm. And the military really, really likes stopping power.

.357Mag is still the gold standard for stopping power because it is, incontestably, a very, very powerful round. However, very few cops carry it any more except as a back-up revolver hidden somewhere under their body armor. There are two primary reasons for this: 1) Cops want more than six shots per gun, meaning they want to carry semi-autos, and there are very few (two?) semi-autos chambered in .357Mag; and 2) 9mm and .45ACP have resoundingly proven themselves to have perfectly adequate "stopping power."

Meaning 9mm and .45ACP, as well as a bunch of other calibers, all carried by LEOs and the military, have plenty of stopping power as well.

What I'm trying to explain is that while the .357Mag is an excellent choice for a caliber with which to be certain to ctb, it is not the minimum caliber capable of ensuring you ctb. There are certainly calibers that are much too small to be effective --only a complete idiot would attempt to ctb with .25ACP-- but there are many calibers less powerful than .357Mag with which you can be confident of success.

(ETA: @Threads, you're cheating: those tests are a JSP vs. FMJ. Of course the .45ACP looks pooky by comparison.)
 
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stargazer

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Nov 19, 2018
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TiredHorse is correct. You can use essentially any reasonable caliber for the purposes listed here. If you know what you are doing, you could use a .380 ACP. But for the purpose of this thread, shotguns are what are solely recommended.

Handguns are becoming increasingly difficult to get. If you have access to a handgun, I would still stand waist deep in a lake or pool and I would still take aspirin.

The best choice is always going to be a shotgun. The absolute best and most realistic choice is going to be a double barrel 12 gauge. Unfortunately, a double barrel 12 gauge can be difficult to readily obtain. However the Maverick 88 is sufficient enough and readily obtainable.
If you think all those are getting hard to obtain, you've never seen how strict Australia's gun laws are. They make a big deal about 1996, but really long before then, it's always just been hard to get firearms in Australia, you know, like easily or without mountains of paperwork, months of checking, reasons, etc.

It's basically like South Korea, I heard they're strict on gun ownership.
 
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Retched

Retched

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TiredHorse is correct. You can use essentially any reasonable caliber for the purposes listed here. If you know what you are doing, you could use a .380 ACP. But for the purpose of this thread, shotguns are what are solely recommended.

Handguns are becoming increasingly difficult to get. If you have access to a handgun, I would still stand waist deep in a lake or pool and I would still take aspirin.

The best choice is always going to be a shotgun. The absolute best and most realistic choice is going to be a double barrel 12 gauge. Unfortunately, a double barrel 12 gauge can be difficult to readily obtain. However the Maverick 88 is sufficient enough and readily obtainable.
Why is a shotgun the best choice? (Gun novice here- it just seems impossible to me to even fathom trying with a shotgun.)
 
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TiredHorse

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The absolute best and most realistic choice is going to be a double barrel 12 gauge.
I don't mean to be snarky, but why double-barrel? You're only going to get one shot.

I will agree that a 12ga is probably the best combination of efficacy and ease of acquisition --and I also agree that its greusome results are psychologically difficult to overcome. Other options need to be considered here.

I take exception to the idea that shotguns should be solely what are recommended. The ctb method of firearms is, by its nature, more complex in its options than, say, drowning, and such simplification isn't neccessarily a good idea, any more than saying nitrogen is the only option for use with an exit bag.

For those who don't have experience with firearms, CTB by firearm is NOT simple, no matter how much Hollywood implies it is. If you're reading this thread, you need to accept that, think carefully about the opinions expressed here, and ask questions.
 
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TiredHorse

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I don't go half measure when it comes to firearms. I don't want you becoming a vegetable or this person.
Please observe, everyone reading this: the woman used a .357Mag --incontestibly plenty of gun for the job!-- but she aimed it up under her chin. Right tool, wrong technique.
A double barrel will be heavier, which will result in less recoil when fired.
Recoil doesn't matter. By the time the recoil begins, the shot has left the barrel and you're dead.

And @Threads, whom I have come to have ever more respect for, has the right idea. Time to stop posting and let the info sink in.