Formic acid+sulphuric acid method

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EternalSanction

EternalSanction

Ex-Staff Member
Jun 7, 2018
246
898
Yes. I’ve started construction and awaiting parts from amazon. I’m using a 2gal water jug for the bath. I’ll have two reaction chambers just for reliability.

Really haven’t thought about where to do it yet. I know in my car with signs posted but not sure what my surroundings will be. I will have a stiff drink with me to lower the barrier to act though. That and music, but if the concentrations are going to be what I think they’re going to be then I won’t be listening very long before unconsciousness.

I nearly forgot - adult diapers. Strange to consider but rather not leave a mess for people. Unless, of course, my body isn’t discovered for a few days in a hot car... hmm is there such a thing as preset emails?
Would you mind creating a step-by-step guide on how to build it? That would be really cool
 
PhilistineEars

PhilistineEars

Member
Jul 1, 2018
62
142
Watching the Cogen GULPS video above somewhere is all you need to get it going.

Please understand, I am simply narrating my journey via snippets of progress (ordering, receiving, final construction, and testing).
 
PhilistineEars

PhilistineEars

Member
Jul 1, 2018
62
142
Formic acid arrived, all chems are here; construction to be completed this weekend.

I’d upload a photo but site doesn’t like it for some reason...
 
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PhilistineEars

PhilistineEars

Member
Jul 1, 2018
62
142
Tested my device and will NOT use canula. As suspected, the back pressure built up and popped it out of the tank.

Will just drill holes in cap and place in confined space.
 
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G

gopher

New Member
Aug 19, 2018
4
7
Hey, I've built a similar device, also with a washing chamber. Somewhere you said you're using a water bath, but shouldn't you use KOH or NaOH solution instead for washing out acid fumes? I'm not a chemical expert, but those bases neutralize acids. I don't know if plain water will help a lot.

You mentioned the pressure in your reaction chamber getting too high, I have a 5L PEHD fuel tank as reaction chamber (plan is to mix 2L S + 1L F or something like that), with quite a big PVC tube that goes to the self-built washing bottle (~1cm inner diameter), of course everything's airtight. I think it's big enough for the pressure, but I have done no tests yet. How thick were your tubes in that test?

The plan is to pump the formic into the reaction chamber using a peristaltic pump with acid-resistant tubes running @ ~ 9V (with 2x 18650), time controlled by a timer relay. I've already tested that (with water) and it works as expected.
 
A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352
Hey is it not enough to simply mix the two chemicals together? Why such complicated device needed? Im confused.
 
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S

Ssname

Wise
Jun 30, 2018
269
665
I think of you have large quantities you should just be able to mix the two right? I can't see the need for anything more complex
 
A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352

It looks something like this, I don't know how it's made though. I think the reason people use that is because they don't want to fall unconscious while the acid is being poured. It should be ok if I hold my breath while pouring it though.
Thank you, good luck to you too! ^-^
Does it matter if the ratio isnt exact you said 500ml formic and 1 litre sulphuric what if its off by a few ml
 
DerSonnenschein

DerSonnenschein

Member
Jul 3, 2018
31
128
Hey is it not enough to simply mix the two chemicals together? Why such complicated device needed? Im confused.
It is indeed enough to just mix the substances together if you are in a small sealed room or a car. However, if you want to ctb in you apartment or a living space where third parties might be endangered (family, neighboors etc.) it's better to use this device so that you won't kill anyone besides yourself.
 
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DerSonnenschein

DerSonnenschein

Member
Jul 3, 2018
31
128
Does it matter if the ratio isnt exact you said 500ml formic and 1 litre sulphuric what if its off by a few ml
The exat ratio doesn't matter. It should be 2:1 sulfuric to formic acid though, so all the formic acid can be degraded to carbon monoxide. 100ml of formic acid should be enough for a car. More is needed for a room.
 
A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352
The exat ratio doesn't matter. It should be 2:1 sulfuric to formic acid though, so all the formic acid can be degraded to carbon monoxide. 100ml of formic acid should be enough for a car. More is needed for a room.
Are you sure about the 100ml?
 
StarDust

StarDust

Arcanist
Aug 21, 2018
510
1,941
Yes I tested it myself and did some research. 100 ml formic acid degrade to about 50 liters of carbon monoxide. In a small car that's much more than 20.000ppm of CO. Renders you unconscious in seconds and dead in minutes.
Sounds good to me.
 
A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352
So 200ml of sulphuric and 100ml formic is more than enough amount for a car. Thank you so much. Also is ceramic bowl ok to use it wont corrode it will it?
Yes I tested it myself and did some research. 100 ml formic acid degrade to about 50 liters of carbon monoxide. In a small car that's much more than 20.000ppm of CO. Renders you unconscious in seconds and dead in minutes.
 
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DerSonnenschein

DerSonnenschein

Member
Jul 3, 2018
31
128
Just test the material beforehand. And make sure that everything is absolutely airtight. If you're not sure about that, then use more acid to be on the safe side.
 
L

lv-gras

fledermausßßßßßßßß
Jul 27, 2018
594
3,108
So 200ml of sulphuric and 100ml formic is more than enough amount for a car. Thank you so much. Also is ceramic bowl ok to use it wont corrode it will it?
glass is best for most chemical stuff?
 
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saffron

saffron

Veteran
Jul 18, 2018
128
344
Hmm.. this might be a good backup method if there is no N supplier in the future, might do opiate +benzo OD and inhale these in a hotel bathroom or wardrobe
 
A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352
Just test the material beforehand. And make sure that everything is absolutely airtight. If you're not sure about that, then use more acid to be on the safe side.
Im gonns go with 200ml formic and 400 suphuric. It should be good enough.
 
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A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352
Im gonns go with 200ml formic and 400 suphuric. It should be good enough.
You said the ratio doesnt have to be exact cos as long as enough formic acid burns its fine
 
A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352
Just test the material beforehand. And make sure that everything is absolutely airtight. If you're not sure about that, then use more acid to be on the safe side.
So like 500ml suphuric acid is ok with 200ml formic acid is ok right? Id have to measure some out of the jar. Im damn scared to handle it tho it causes instant burn if touched right?
 
A

Anje

Wise
Aug 19, 2018
213
352
Just test the material beforehand. And make sure that everything is absolutely airtight. If you're not sure about that, then use more acid to be on the safe side.
Or like 500ml sulphuric and 300 formic is fine too right. the ratio doesnt matter as long as enough formic can turn into carbon monoxide right?
 
DerSonnenschein

DerSonnenschein

Member
Jul 3, 2018
31
128
Or like 500ml sulphuric and 300 formic is fine too right. the ratio doesnt matter as long as enough formic can turn into carbon monoxide right?
Yes you're right. Make sure to wear gloves and safety glasses to avoid injury.
 
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bbq1

bbq1

Gone
Aug 3, 2018
323
769
You should use as much sulphuric as you can. At least double the formic amount. Otherwise the reaction will slow or stop as the sulphuric gets diluted by the water that was in the formic molecule.
Formic is h2o+Co
 
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24 Hour Store

24 Hour Store

Member
Aug 18, 2018
13
43
Just test the material beforehand.
Do you mean test the acids to see if they contain the right ingredients/percentages?
I have no idea how to do this except from what it says on the label.

I don't have a CO meter, can I just double the amount you recommend and go from there?

Also, looking online most of the tents feature the word "breathable fabric". Does that mean the CO will leak out?. I don't know anything about tents but it says the waterproof level is way above 3000.
 
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P

poof

Elementalist
Aug 15, 2018
760
1,365
This is just chemistry (of which I completely understand; it’s relating to people that confounds).

Vapors are typically formed as a result of either the exothermic reaction or being aerosolised due to rapid (violent) mixing (think heavy bubbling, fizzing, etc.).

That is why (merely precautionary) a water bath is used to wash the gases and produce clean CO delivery into the breathable environment.

My purchases (nearly 4 L of each) is WAY excessive and is not all for ctb (some for experimenting, some for repeatability testing or validation, then the rest for ctb).
Hi Philistine: The formic acid in Canada is no more than 85% and I do not know if it will work. Do you know? I am also finding it difficult to get info. re. emphysema and the likelihood of success with CO., especially if I cannot see well enough to set things up properly. There would be little value in going into panic mode while semi-unconscious, and zooming away...kinda defeats the purpose, eh?