FIRST EVER SN DOCUMENTATION

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Nemeshisu

Nemeshisu

Veteran
Dec 25, 2019
171
321
Thank you very much for documenting it. It must have been very difficult for you. Both you and @Moonicide must have been very brave. I am glad that you honored last wish of your friend. I hope you are doing okay now, Lotus :heart:
 
C

ceasetobreathe03

In a year, you'll forget I'm gone
Dec 20, 2019
172
346
I'm happy Moonie didn't feel a lot of pain ❤ I'm going to miss Moonie though :/ It was kind of sad reading the SN process when she had taken it (the gasping for air after). But I'm glad she can rest peacefully.
 
UpandDownPrincess

UpandDownPrincess

Member
Dec 31, 2019
69
126
Sweet, sweet Moonie, I wish you peace I hope you are finding everything you need and want on the other side. Give Stan a big hug and kiss from all of us.

Lotus-

Please be gentle with yourself for a while. What you have done is very brave and very kind, to be there for her. It is likely that you will relive these minutes over the next few weeks. If you need us to talk you through anything, to listen, to comfort, we are here.
 
H

HopeDiesLast

Member
Dec 28, 2019
84
268
This thread is such a double edged sword. Sure the information is useful but at what cost? I'm so sorry that you had to go through this but atleast you were there to provide some company.
Agreed. Undoubtedly, this experience will take a huge emotional toll on @Lotus1818 in the short term and long term. I cannot even imagine the full extent of it.

Hopefully she took measures to safeguard her identity so she won't get tangled up in the death investigation. And let's hope there won't be any legal ramifications or additional scrutiny for this forum...
 
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LMFAO FOCKERS

LMFAO FOCKERS

Specialist
May 26, 2019
386
977
Thank you for sharing.

I'm a bit put off by the loud noises. I was planning on taking SN in a hotel room, but if i'm making loud groaning noises, someone might be alerted and try to interupt me.
This sounds unreasonable. People F aka make loud grunting noises, head banging noises and all types of other noises all the time in hotels for 30+ minutes on end without interruptions. And noone gives a F about it.

It always makes me chuckle how people overanalyze every little thing to the nth degree without considering real life situations. People arent mice...

Can we use our heads a bit please??
 
a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

Professional Quitter
Nov 17, 2019
192
275
I have also thought about providing at least audio documentation should I decide to go through with it. So if someone knows what they are doing privacy wise, maybe through discord/ Skype/ TeamSpeak/ whatever, and willing to set it up, this could be great for the community as a whole. We wouldn't need to rely solely on PNs sketchy information.
 
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enlightened_suicide

enlightened_suicide

Member
Jan 4, 2020
79
174
Thank you for being so kind in fulfilling her final wishes, but I am also so sorry you had to go through this.

I know she's looking down happy that you put this out, so she could even be of help from the afterlife .
 
nitrogen

nitrogen

Life is an STD
Nov 5, 2019
107
458
I’m very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down or excreted by the time they drink SN. I’d do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal - even takes less time under the prokinetic effect of meto. But of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html
 
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peacefullpainless

peacefullpainless

need a reliable method
Aug 12, 2019
162
343
I’m very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down by the time they drink SN. I’d do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal, but of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html
I would at least do a 12 hour meto regimen because as you said meto does empty the stomach. But that's in my case cause I have problems with constipation and problems emptying my stomach.
 
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I

I want to end it

Veteran
Apr 29, 2018
130
255
She puked several times but it still worked? Even though she took the AE? I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. Maybe this would have been even quicker if she didn't puke.
 
WhyIsLife56

WhyIsLife56

Antinatalism + Efilism ❤️
Nov 4, 2019
994
2,487
She puked several times but it still worked? Even though she took the AE? I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. Maybe this would have been even quicker if she didn't puke.
You can still puke even when you take the antiemetic (Like Meto). It's been said a lot of times.
You can still die even if you vomit.
I'm guessing she took Meto cause it would help her die quicker.
 
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Kira

Kira

Same stuff, different day
Apr 27, 2018
106
270
Thank you so much for doing this. I know this was incredibly hard for you, and I admire your bravery and dedication. You were a good friend to Moon and I know that she was glad to have you there with her in her final moments. You've done an amazing job and this will help so many people. Take as much time as you need to process everything and recover. We are all here for you. :heart:
 
J

jgm63

Illuminated
Oct 28, 2019
1,135
1,848
Pain on the scale of 3.5/5 sounds really painful. Wouldn't it have been a little bit lower if it was just uncomfortable?

Thank you for this beautiful thread. Really helps me over with my fears.
f.y.i. 3.5/10 was written, not 3.5/5
 
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Jean4

Jean4

Remember. I am ALWAYS right.... until I’m not
Apr 28, 2019
4,356
8,788
I’m very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down or excreted by the time they drink SN. I’d do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal - even takes less time under the prokinetic effect of meto. But of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html
Stan gave me multiple days he may CTB. He wrote his goodbye post when he knew I would be asleep.

We ate our meals together over Skype. The night he wrote his goodbye post, he didn’t eat. When I asked why, he said he wasn’t feeling well.

He was probably fasting and didn’t tell me. He fasted at least 5 hours.
 
less than

less than

not important
Jul 25, 2019
106
177
It's fully understandable that you need a break. I know people which support dying people (by terminal illnesses or simply elderly) on their last way (natural death). Before they get the ability to do that, they have do get through professional education. And even for they it's a hard job. And you've done this without any preparations. We can barely imagine how hard it has hit you and which impact that has for you. Take as much time as you need and take care for yourself.
 
J

jgm63

Illuminated
Oct 28, 2019
1,135
1,848
I really hope she didn't suffer while she was gasping for air. I'm rethinking this method now
The overall impression I get is still that it is fairly peaceful.
Yes, there is likely to be some discomfort, but the discomfort level doesn't sound that bad or seem to last very long.
But obviously, everyone has to decide for themselves....
I’m very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down or excreted by the time they drink SN. I’d do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal - even takes less time under the prokinetic effect of meto. But of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html
Some notes on 48 hour vs stat :
Notes on fasting :
 
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B

Backwood_tilt

Wise
Dec 27, 2019
282
434
I'm gonna take a break from this website. I won't be answering any questions for a while. Thanks for understanding
You have been through a lot - you certainly deserve a break. I cannot imagine what it was like to go through this.

Thank you for your efforts documenting Moonicide's passing, i am sure it will be very useful for others.
 
smole

smole

Member
Dec 12, 2019
34
70
I’m very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down or excreted by the time they drink SN. I’d do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal - even takes less time under the prokinetic effect of meto. But of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html
Appreciate the interesting information. Your point on the 48 hour regime makes sense and i'll be reconsidering my decision to not go with the stat dose.

I'm wondering how you recommend we test different antiemetics? Seems like you would have to induce nausea after taking them to determine if they are effective.
 
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A

aramir

Member
Dec 13, 2019
33
68
can you let us know if the noises she made were loud enough to possibly alert anyone if they were in an opposite room ?
 
J

jgm63

Illuminated
Oct 28, 2019
1,135
1,848
can you let us know if the noises she made were loud enough to possibly alert anyone if they were in an opposite room ?
I think they were on a video call, so it might be hard to judge. Anyhow, it would depend on various factors (eg how thick or thin are the walls, how large are the rooms, and how much distance between them, etc).
I think some people try to have some background noise, eg a video or music playing.

I suppose in theory you could do a test run by putting some music on, then making a few noises to see if anybody notices, but then you would need to know how loud to make the noises, so hard to say how valid that would be...
 
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Starrywaters

Starrywaters

Member
Dec 10, 2019
56
122
can you let us know if the noises she made were loud enough to possibly alert anyone if they were in an opposite room ?
Lotus mentioned Moon lived with her parents and sisters, the door was unlocked and she wasn’t disturbed.

Of course it will always depends on how ‘responsive’ somebody you are with may be to noises, what may alert one person to investigate may not do so for another.
Oh Lotus, my heart is sending you all the love I can muster for how hard this must be for you. It’s an incredible burden and you have provided good reference for those looking at this method.

Please look after yourself
 
Quarky00

Quarky00

Master
Dec 17, 2019
469
945
@nitrogen , half-life and clearance are dose-dependent , effects accumulate , and tolerance built (may ease side effects) . Increased rest tone of GI muscles / sphincters helpful . If it takes 48h-72h to eliminate , surely it accumulates . Meto can also be very harsh for certain people , with a single big dose , and that may cause not-so-peaceful ctb . That said both regimen are effective , each suits different people with their prior conditions , sensitivities , and preferences .

Ondansetron is indeed more effective for preventing nausea than metclopramide . That's not the goal . Prokinetic effects and D2 receptors in CTZ appear beneficial . It goes neither here nor there: many used SN fatally without AE and many vomited even with AE . But chances of hastening or easing things may be increased (speculative). Couldn't agree more about 'one size fits all' , and that current regimen/schedule are too strict for no reason, test it yourself, etc.

Hope I did not come off argumentative , I'm tired , hard for me to phrase things , just 2 cents :heart:

 
BlueWidow

BlueWidow

Illuminated
Oct 6, 2019
1,257
3,130
@Lotus1818,

First, My heartfelt gratitude for your courage and tenacity in making this post. I’m sure it must’ve been hard for you to witness the passing of your close friend. I’m sure everyone on this forum thanks you for going through that experience in order to add to our information. I hope you are doing as well as possible after the passing of your friend.
I didn’t know Moonicide well, but I could tell what a caring person she was. What you and she have both done in making this post possible is give many of us more certainty and assurance that SN is as peaceful of a method aspossible, if you have no way to obtain N.
“Peaceful” being a relative term, as everyone defines it in different degrees.


I watched my husband go through this when he was dying of cancer. I believe hospice gave him medicine so it wouldn’t be quite as obvious to family members, as is stated on the Wikipedia page. I was told by the hospice workers that he was not in any pain and was not aware of what was going on. Again, he was in hospice and being given meds, but I think most people go through this when they are in the process of dying. It’s a normal thing.

Thank you again for your contribution to this forum. I’m sure it will give untold numbers of people, both now and in the future, much needed reassurance about the SN method.

Sending love and hugs :heart::hug:
 
nitrogen

nitrogen

Life is an STD
Nov 5, 2019
107
458
Some notes on 48 hour vs stat :
The 48 hour regime might have a lower EPS risk since you're not taking so much antiemetic at once.
Some people suggest there's a lower vomiting risk with the 48 hour regime, but I haven't seen evidence to convincingly support that
There could be additional benefits to the 48 hour regime, other than the lower EPS risk, however it is not clear what those are (if any), although speculations have been made. If you have strong factual information on this then please share.
So based on your notes, the only benefit of the 2 day or 48 hr regimen over stat dose is lower EPS risk, besides mental preparation that some people need. There shouldn't be a significantly lower vomiting risk with the 48 hr regimen based on the pharmacokinetics of meto, which is in line with what you wrote.

half-life and clearance are dose-dependent , effects accumulate , and tolerance built (may ease side effects) . Increased rest tone of GI muscles / sphincters helpful . If it takes 48h-72h to eliminate , surely it accumulates . Meto can also be very harsh for certain people , with a single big dose
If 85% of orally administered meto appears in the urine within 72 hrs, sure the other 15% still remains in the body and there's accumulation to a small degree. Good point on a big single dose may be harsh for certain people, which leads to the question "why does it have to be meto as the AE of choice?"

I don't see what makes meto THE antiemetic choice. Stan listed a bunch of AEs and the PPH listed a bunch of AEs that can also work with the SN method, though both Stan and PPH used meto in their step by step guides. Many people talk about meto as if it's the only AE choice. I did find research articles that suggest meto speeds up the absorption of certain chemicals in the duodenum, which could potentially speed up SN death - the question is by how much.

There had been a discussion of meto (Reglan) vs Ondansetron (Zofran) on this forum before. It's pretty useful. If I can't decide a winner, seems like a good idea to take both.

Regarding fasting, this section is copied and pasted from Stan's SN guide: " Fasting is strongly recommended. Some people have medical conditions that mean fasting has a negative effect on them. Sources say that 8 hours is needed. I would suggest individuals know their own metabolism better than a book. If you know that your stomach feels empty after 4 hours, then I suggest you have a 4 hour fast. Try to avoid eating anything large and heavy. Avoid drinking anything two hours prior to drinking the SN." I would suggest the same as Stan suggested - fast as long as it's needed for your stomach to empty, but perhaps not much longer than that.
The night he wrote his goodbye post, he didn’t eat. When I asked why, he said he wasn’t feeling well.
He was probably fasting and didn’t tell me. He fasted at least 5 hours.
Not feeling well how? Physically or emotionally?

Stan did the stat dose, right?

It must have been extremely difficult on you given how close you were to him. I'm so sorry for your loss.
 
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notjustyetagain

notjustyetagain

Veteran
Oct 28, 2019
128
757
extremely brave, selfless, and generous (i.e. typical) of @Moonicide and @Lotus1818. all my thoughts/feelings can be condensed to thank you, sorry, and :heart:.

i hope you take as long as you need to process your experience and find some acceptance, strength, or whatever it is you're looking for during your break, @Lotus1818.