[Method] Exit bag and inert gas megathread

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Throwaway9787

Throwaway9787

Master
Jun 27, 2019
431
473
Thank you for your detailed reply, Pane. With the HELIUM: back in the day you just needed the GLADD hood or Betty's DIY version with 2 Balloon time tanks-NO REGULATOR.
However I have had those tanks some time and am suspicious of slow leakage.
I witnessed a few Helium hood exits and there was the instance of a major full body "jerk" as the individual feel heavily and suddenly unconscious. No convulsions as I would describe them.
So my concern is the regulator and a hope that the old bag (trusting no perforations) will do the trick. Any data on CO2 build up? How real is that? Using same equipment as i would have with the Helium

Nitro canister in US $95; Make your own bag $20ish; Regulator $35
I feel like I would botch it, but I thought the cost was way more. Some maxdog regulator or something. Also, from where do you get the nitrogen tanks.
 
Sirius

Sirius

Veteran
Jul 10, 2019
142
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I feel like I would botch it, but I thought the cost was way more. Some maxdog regulator or something. Also, from where do you get the nitrogen tanks.
The max dog- no thought involved kit from Aussie land is like $330 and you need to get the can of nitro in your own country seperately
 
Throwaway9787

Throwaway9787

Master
Jun 27, 2019
431
473
The max dog- no thought involved kit from Aussie land is like $330 and you need to get the can of nitro in your own country seperately
And how long does it take to expire with this method
 
Throwaway9787

Throwaway9787

Master
Jun 27, 2019
431
473
By all accounts it the same as helium........5 minutes or so
This will be my back up I think. But I have no place to hide a nitrogen tank. Do you have any idea how big it is?
 
Throwaway9787

Throwaway9787

Master
Jun 27, 2019
431
473
comes up to my knee about as round as large bottle of soda ( or pop)
Damn I have no place to hide that at my house. Guess it’s F for me. I reckon they’re similar in peacefulness
 
J

jolly_well_fed_up

Member
Jul 26, 2019
15
6
How much does this method cost
HI Throwaway9787,

I consider it impossible to answer the question in a general way because it depends where you are living and I cannot speak for the US, India, Australia, Canada, Africa, etc but only give a rough estimation for central Europe, and even here it would depend on whether you prefer to use new material or 2nd hand material e.g. from ebay. I'd vote for new material, which makes a significant difference.

Estimation for new material in central Europe:

4.6 Helium 20 liters 200 bar - 170 Euro
pressure regulator with flow-meter - 170 Euro
zippered mattress cover - 15 Euro
tube 2 meter - 4 Euro
tape - 2 Euro
rope or belt (if you prefer) - 2 Euro


I forgot anything?


Information provided for educational purpose only!
 
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Throwaway9787

Throwaway9787

Master
Jun 27, 2019
431
473
HI Throwaway9787,

I consider it impossible to answer the question in a general way because it depends where you are living and I cannot speak for the US, India, Australia, Canada, Africa, etc but only give a rough estimation for central Europe, and even here it would depend on whether you prefer to use new material or 2nd hand material e.g. from ebay. I'd vote for new material, which makes a significant difference.

Estimation for new material in central Europe:

4.6 Helium 20 liters 200 bar - 170 Euro
pressure regulator with flow-meter - 170 Euro
zippered mattress cover - about 15 Euro
tube 2 meter - about 4 Euro
tape - about 2 Euro
rope or belt (if you prefer) - 2 Euro


I forgot anything?


Information provided for educational purpose only!
Too many supplies, I’ll for sure fuck this up
 
Sirius

Sirius

Veteran
Jul 10, 2019
142
126
Damn I have no place to hide that at my house. Guess it’s F for me. I reckon they’re similar in peacefulness
Just for the record: I've had the policia at my home on mre than one occasion because I had been a Guide. They looked under the bed, behind furniture, closets, etc. I had the nitro painted red with flowers and slapped a lamp shade on it- right by my bedside. They were so hooked into looking for helium they never saw it hiding in plain sight. I did pray to the gods of anarchy that the BS was strong with me that day
Mind you..I don't have immediate plans. This is my exit if/when my medical condition goes to sht. My Roman catholic Doc would never honor the State legalization for assistance
 
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Throwaway9787

Throwaway9787

Master
Jun 27, 2019
431
473
Just for the record: I've had the policia at my home on mre than one occasion because I had been a Guide. They looked under the bed, behind furniture, closets, etc. I had the nitro painted red with flowers and slapped a lamp shade on it- right by my bedside. They were so hooked into looking for helium they never saw it hiding in plain sight. I did pray to the gods of anarchy that the BS was strong with me that day
Mind you..I don't have immediate plans. This is my exit if/when my medical condition goes to sht. My Roman catholic Doc would never honor the State legalization for assistance
damn good way of hiding it tbh
 
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jolly_well_fed_up

Member
Jul 26, 2019
15
6
Just for the record: I've had the policia at my home on mre than one occasion because I had been a Guide. They looked under the bed, behind furniture, closets, etc. I had the nitro painted red with flowers and slapped a lamp shade on it- right by my bedside. They were so hooked into looking for helium they never saw it hiding in plain sight. I did pray to the gods of anarchy that the BS was strong with me that day
Mind you..I don't have immediate plans. This is my exit if/when my medical condition goes to sht. My Roman catholic Doc would never honor the State legalization for assistance

Hello Sirius,

What means, you "had been a Guide" ... could you concretize?

Thank you!
 
pane

pane

Wise
Apr 29, 2019
248
359
Sirius all I can tell you about the issue of CO2 build-up is that you're supposed to exhale as deeply and forcibly as you can to expel any remaining oxygen from your lungs before pulling the exit bag down over your head and that once the inert gas is flowing it's supposed to fill the space around your head inside the bag so that's all you're breathing and to prevent any air from entering the bag from the outside environment.

As best I recall, CO2 is a byproduct of exhalation and would accumulate inside the bag without the inert gas flowing in. Eventually enough CO2 would be present to trigger what I think is called the "hypercapnic alarm" which is that sensation of "not getting enough air" that causes people to panic. Having the inert gas flowing continuously into the exit bag is supposed to prevent this.
 
Sirius

Sirius

Veteran
Jul 10, 2019
142
126
Hello Sirius,

What means, you "had been a Guide" ... could you concretize?

Thank you!
Used to be part of FEN
Sirius all I can tell you about the issue of CO2 build-up is that you're supposed to exhale as deeply and forcibly as you can to expel any remaining oxygen from your lungs before pulling the exit bag down over your head and that once the inert gas is flowing it's supposed to fill the space around your head inside the bag so that's all you're breathing and to prevent any air from entering the bag from the outside environment.

As best I recall, CO2 is a byproduct of exhalation and would accumulate inside the bag without the inert gas flowing in. Eventually enough CO2 would be present to trigger what I think is called the "hypercapnic alarm" which is that sensation of "not getting enough air" that causes people to panic. Having the inert gas flowing continuously into the exit bag is supposed to prevent this.
Thanks for that. So, as I see it, There would be little/no difference between how helium and Nitro work
 
pane

pane

Wise
Apr 29, 2019
248
359
Used to be part of FEN

Thanks for that. So, as I see it, There would be little/no difference between how helium and Nitro work
If you used to work for FEN (that's Humphries' organization, right?) is there anyone you could contact to get the latest advice on the inert gas/exit bag method (assuming you keep in touch with anybody there)?
 
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jolly_well_fed_up

Member
Jul 26, 2019
15
6
Used to be part of FEN

Thanks for that. So, as I see it, There would be little/no difference between how helium and Nitro work
Thank you for concretizing.

There is a difference: Helium is less narcotic (if at all any) than N2 but this is actually only relevant when diving. Helium is an inert gas while N2 is a semi-inert gas, which is actually only relevant for the material (to be) welded. Helium does replace/push out the O2 from your lungs a lot quicker than N2 does because Helium is a lot less dense than Air, and N2 is almost as dense as Air.


Information provided for educational purpose only!
 
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Sirius

Sirius

Veteran
Jul 10, 2019
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If you used to work for FEN (that's Humphries' organization, right?) is there anyone you could contact to get the latest advice on the inert gas/exit bag method (assuming you keep in touch with anybody there)?
The "new" regime that came after my buddy, their medical director, died are not my best friends.. Kinda hung me, and him, out to dry back in the day after FEN got some media attention. My back channels tell me that Nitro is being administered and is as reliable as the helium
Thank you for concretizing.

There is a difference: Helium is less narcotic (if at all any) than N2 but this is actually only relevant when diving. Helium is an inert gas while N2 is a semi-inert gas, which is actually only relevant for the material (to be) welded. Helium does replace/push out the O2 from your lungs a lot quicker than N2 does because Helium is a lot less dense than Air, and N2 is almost as dense as Air.


Information provided for educational purpose only!
Hmmm, gotta love the science
If you used to work for FEN (that's Humphries' organization, right?) is there anyone you could contact to get the latest advice on the inert gas/exit bag method (assuming you keep in touch with anybody there)?
I will say I had a tele conversation with a still active member the other day who told me to believe nothing I read on this site-LOL Still swears by hood method
 
Eweforia

Eweforia

Member
Jul 27, 2019
11
5
However I have had those tanks some time and am suspicious of slow leakage.
<snip>
Nitro canister in US $95; Make your own bag $20ish; Regulator $35
Like @Sirius , my helium tanks are seriously old and I worry that they may have leaked. That's why I'm fitting out a nitrogen tank. I couldn't find an inexpensive regulator that measured in liters/minute and had the correct barb hose fitting and standard tank fitting. Perhaps if I could do the math conversion, one of the regulators that measured in psi would work, but that is too complex for me. No one has stepped forward to offer an alternative to the $80 Hobart valve (https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/hobart-flow-gauge-mig-regulator) and I couldn't find it on Amazon so it may be difficult to find elsewhere online. My local Airgas outlet sells a 20 lb N2 tank for US$126 plus $29 for the N2.
 
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Sirius

Sirius

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Jul 10, 2019
142
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Like @Sirius , my helium tanks are seriously old and I worry that they may have leaked. That's why I'm fitting out a nitrogen tank. I couldn't find an inexpensive regulator that measured in liters/minute and had the correct barb hose fitting and standard tank fitting. Perhaps if I could do the math conversion, one of the regulators that measured in psi would work, but that is too complex for me. No one has stepped forward to offer an alternative to the $80 Hobart valve (https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/hobart-flow-gauge-mig-regulator) and I couldn't find it on Amazon so it may be difficult to find elsewhere online. My local Airgas outlet sells a 20 lb N2 tank for US$126 plus $29 for the N2.
I’m lazy. Will probably get the max fog set up
 
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T

TiredHorse

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Nov 1, 2018
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If you look at the larger attachment "collar" (not sure what else to call it) on the leftside of the neck of the tank you can see it has INTERNAL threads. The Olson regulator will not connect to it without an adapter.
Good catch; I didn't spot that.
I *believe* the Hobart regulator should work with a nitrogen tank even though it's marked as an "Argon/CO2" regulator although I can't say with total certainty because it's been awhile since I last read up on the inert gas method.
The threads on Ar and N2 cylinders are the same. I have an Ar/CO2 regulator (Harbor Freight) on my N2 tank (AirGas).

The only known complication with using an Ar/CO2 regulator on an N2 cylinder is that --as has been discussed somewhere around the forum-- N2 is a different density than Ar or CO2, and thus the flowmeter will not register precisely. Complicating matters, no two regulators have the same mechanism, so there is no one conversion factor to use to determine indicated flow vs. actual flow --i.e. dialing in 17 LPM on an Ar regulator = 15 LPM of N2. Very inconvenient. The established workaround seems to be to nudge the flow up a bit, say to 17 or 19 LPM, to be sure there's enough N2 flowing to flush away the exhaled CO2.
How much does this method cost
Nitro canister in US $95; Make your own bag $20ish; Regulator $35
My 40cf cylinder was closer to $110, and the cheap regulators seem to have increased in price to $70. I don't think my bag cost even $10, though.
 
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HopelessFashionista

HopelessFashionista

Member
Jul 8, 2019
17
38
I was on Instrument Depot's website and it looks like they offer shipping of filled tanks. But I don't know very much at all about what the descriptions mean or what size tank to order (or two?). They offer regulators, too, but I wish they had a link that said, "If you buy this tank, you want this regulator" so I make sure to get the correct equipment.

I like the idea of shipping the tanks to me because for some reason I'm too scared to go to a place in person. I don't know why.

It obviously costs more to have it shipped but if money isn't as much of a factor, it could be a good option. ?? Any thoughts?
 
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MG_49

Member
Jul 5, 2019
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I was on Instrument Depot's website and it looks like they offer shipping of filled tanks. But I don't know very much at all about what the descriptions mean or what size tank to order (or two?). They offer regulators, too, but I wish they had a link that said, "If you buy this tank, you want this regulator" so I make sure to get the correct equipment.

I like the idea of shipping the tanks to me because for some reason I'm too scared to go to a place in person. I don't know why.

It obviously costs more to have it shipped but if money isn't as much of a factor, it could be a good option. ?? Any thoughts?
I'm not going to spoon feed you with information how to ctb with inert gas, because I don't feel comfortable helping others ctb. But when I see someone might do a mistake which could result in brain damage, I have to give a warning.
The largest tube there is to small. (1.29L/105L compressed gas)
 
HopelessFashionista

HopelessFashionista

Member
Jul 8, 2019
17
38
I'm not going to spoon feed you with information how to ctb with inert gas, because I don't feel comfortable helping others ctb. But when I see someone might do a mistake which could result in brain damage, I have to give a warning.
The largest tube there is to small. (1.29L/105L compressed gas)
I mistook this forum as a place to seek advice and insight. Which doesn't have to be synonymous with "spoon feeding" people information. I was just asking if anyone would like to offer any feedback, such as your last two sentences.

Thanks.
 
A

attribute-level-kale

Member
Jul 16, 2019
5
1
If you are using a C02/Argon regulator the flow rate should be at least 22 L / min.

I see repeated unsourced claims about the flow rate ratio being 1.44 and this is probably correct given the density.
 
T

TiredHorse

Illuminated
Nov 1, 2018
1,836
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If you are using a C02/Argon regulator the flow rate should be at least 22 L / min.

I see repeated unsourced claims about the flow rate ratio being 1.44 and this is probably correct given the density.
It isn't as simple as that. Someone here did a test a few months ago: the ratio varies wildly depending on the manufacturer of the regulator.
 
Righttodie

Righttodie

Live free or die
Apr 10, 2019
119
284
So this is my go to method now.
I gave up on hanging, too much worries of it being painful.

I want to thank @TiredHorse for their great work here in informing others of this method, it will surely help others achieve an end with less worries of suffering which comes with other methods

I will be updating everyone on where I stand in gathering supplies and the cost and any other queries.
Might help others who have similar questions.

So I have started today by finally calling up the gas suppliers and one of them sent me a photo of a tank he has. It looks rusty and that's just one of my worries if it will account for any issues or not (Will it ? ). I asked for a new one, but he said it will come in bulk and not anytime soon, and I am guessing that most of the tanks these suppliers have will look a bit rough around the edges even if it may or may not make a difference.

It's about 8 months old. Total cost of the tank and gas shouldn't be more than 100 $
It is 1.5 cubic metres(53 cubic feet), the smallest most of suppliers have. The next size is 7 cubic metres, which is too large for this purpose.

You guys can let me know if this seems fine. Would be much appreciated as I would stop worrying and be reassured.
I will then be looking into regulators and other tools.

Thanks


img-20190802-wa0001-jpg.14354
 
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color_me_gone

color_me_gone

Sun is rising
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I have seen tanks that look 100 times worse than that, in use everyday in industry. Most important is that the valve does not leak, which will cause you to lose gas, and it adds up quickly. Sadly, you just can't look at a valve and tell if it leaks.
 

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