[Venting] Because we talk about suicide, it means we won’t do it...

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PrettyNoose

PrettyNoose

is pretty pain
Mar 1, 2020
216
881
I've heard this before from my mom, who is also a psych nurse. Afterwards I brought up the obvious fact that Chris Cornell of Soundgarden/Audioslave had many songs in which he sang about suicide, and even some in which he sang about hanging. We all know how his life ended, suicide by hanging.

It's true that some people don't talk about suicide before they commit the act. It's also true that some people do talk about suicide before they carry it out. Using those who don't talk about it to dismiss those who do is pretty shitty logic.
 
disconnection

disconnection

It's the blue hour again
Apr 24, 2020
267
199
Yup they all do this. Mental health 'professional' 101. First time I came across this I was trying to get admitted to a psych ward. Panel of 3 psychiatrists (I thought at the time, probably not actually all psychiatrists looking back now) sat there while one of them said 'so why didn't you jump off <insert local jump point here>' after I'd told them that was my plan. Just like that. Certainly felt like they were saying I should have done.
 
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Alec

Master
Apr 22, 2019
498
983
Ummm what? That sounds batshit crazy, they are clearly not fit to be working there! If they are there to help people who want to kill themselves but then when people come to them for help because they want to ctb and they tell them no, because if you want to talk about it you won’t do it, then how the hell are they doing their job?!
 
disconnection

disconnection

It's the blue hour again
Apr 24, 2020
267
199
I guess the flip side to this is that so many people have thoughts and even plans of suicide and relatively few people do actually go on to complete suicide. Often people will talk lots and lots about suicide too and perhaps have attempts which aren't likely to be lethal. And most people who go into mental healthcare just don't understand the sheer anguish of being suicidal in the first place so they stop responding with compassion. No excuse, I find it disgusting. But I reckon thats what's happening - compassion fatigue. Unfortunately, the strongest predictor of a completed suicide is a previous attempt.
 
S

Sadkitty

Member
May 16, 2020
47
309
I've been reading a lot of negative things about psychiatric care in the UK. :(
I had a shrink, my favorite so far, tell my mom "I'm sorry. There's nothing more I can do for her" after I was involuntarily was hospitalized for suicidal ideation. He hated dealing with suicidal pts which is pretty odd considering his choice of specialty. Even your doctor just abandons you in your time of need, it's amazing.
 
M

Meowkin

Veteran
May 6, 2020
127
256
According to the crisis clinician who I spoke to today.... so they denied me help because they don’t think I’ll do it. It almost feels like a challenge. I can’t believe that I got the courage to ask for help, to then be told no. That’s deffo made me ready now
I'm sorry for your awful experience with the crisis clinician. I imagine that experience has put you off getting professional help. While there are good clinicians out there, it's a pity that luck decides who we get to see. I only wish the clinician on duty that day was someone who could have helped you. If you ever did try again, I really hope they'd be helpful.
 
H

Heartsick Traveler

Member
Mar 7, 2020
37
44
I've never spoken with anyone who worked a suicide hotline who had any professional training whatsoever. They're well-intentioned, ill-prepared volunteers who believe sharing platitudes and self-help slogans, or guilting callers into choosing life, is somehow therapeutic. I'm so sorry.
 
I

Inner_dialogue

Member
May 19, 2020
34
122
So fucking ridiculous.... People who Talk about and making Plans are of course high risk patients. I Wonder if they really really believe that bullshit they tell of if theyre just helpless..

i know it Feels like a challenge But it really should not.Are there other places where you can seek help?
In my area, the crisis team are the “gatekeepers” of all assessments so they are in charge. I could go private but it costs too much money I’ve woken up this morning feeling ready to ctb
fr when i talked about it they denied it saying “cuz u said u gonna do it u won’t or u would be dead now if u really wanna do it” tf??!!&&$!?!
I’ve had this said to me before too!
I'm sorry for your awful experience with the crisis clinician. I imagine that experience has put you off getting professional help. While there are good clinicians out there, it's a pity that luck decides who we get to see. I only wish the clinician on duty that day was someone who could have helped you. If you ever did try again, I really hope they'd be helpful.
I can’t, I just can’t do it anymore. The conversation yesterday has made a “maybe I’ll do it” to a “yep I’m ready”
 
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catmom13

Member
Apr 29, 2020
23
38
I've had this experience with the suicide hotline years ago, which is why I roll my eyes when someone suggests any hotline to me. The person on the other line was monotonous and did not seem to have any empathy at all.
 
Suez

Suez

Wise
Feb 27, 2020
256
339
According to the crisis clinician who I spoke to today.... so they denied me help because they don’t think I’ll do it. It almost feels like a challenge. I can’t believe that I got the courage to ask for help, to then be told no. That’s deffo made me ready now
That has to be the most fallacious ,rediculous thing I have ever heard from a so called mental health clinician. How dare they...I am so sorry that you were subjected to that. You did not deserve to be treated in that way. What the fuck is wrong with those people?
That has to be the most fallacious ,rediculous thing I have ever heard from a so called mental health clinician. How dare they...I am so sorry that you were subjected to that. You did not deserve to be treated in that way. What the fuck is wrong with those people?
After what they have just put you through maybe you dont want to do this, but part of me really wants to say to you to go to the Manager of the Facility you were at today or where ever this person belongs and make a complaint. I would walk in there and demand to see who ever is in charge, if that person is not in the building ask to see the second in charge and keep moving along until you get to see someone standing in front of you. I would tell that person what you were subjected to by this crisis counsellor, how it made you feel, how difficult it was for you to get the courage up to walk into that building and ask for help, how you felt you werent listened to, that you were completely dismissed , how in speaking with the crisis counsellor you were made to feel that by talking about suicide you were not genuinely wanting to commit suicide, so after you left from talking with the crisis counsellor you left feeling as if he was actualling challenging you. Im so angry at how he treated you, Im so sorry that happened to you today, I really am. I hope that maybe you do consider laying a complaint with the service. How you were treated was dusgusting.
 
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Bct

Veteran
Apr 20, 2020
196
240
Sorry about what you've been going through. It's really baffling why the professionals just dismissing someone's pain. Along with what others said, perhaps they want to avoid responsibilities if something happens to you when under their care? Totally counterproductive...
 
Cashewmilk

Cashewmilk

Veteran
Mar 10, 2020
158
291
That's completely fucked up I would report them. My sister always told me that my talking about it means I'll never do it. She is disappointed that I never succeeded in it, she's always like "you would have done by now so just stop talking about it! People who commit suicide just do it they don't tell anyone." That's what I live with.
 
I

Inner_dialogue

Member
May 19, 2020
34
122
That has to be the most fallacious ,rediculous thing I have ever heard from a so called mental health clinician. How dare they...I am so sorry that you were subjected to that. You did not deserve to be treated in that way. What the fuck is wrong with those people?

After what they have just put you through maybe you dont want to do this, but part of me really wants to say to you to go to the Manager of the Facility you were at today or where ever this person belongs and make a complaint. I would walk in there and demand to see who ever is in charge, if that person is not in the building ask to see the second in charge and keep moving along until you get to see someone standing in front of you. I would tell that person what you were subjected to by this crisis counsellor, how it made you feel, how difficult it was for you to get the courage up to walk into that building and ask for help, how you felt you werent listened to, that you were completely dismissed , how in speaking with the crisis counsellor you were made to feel that by talking about suicide you were not genuinely wanting to commit suicide, so after you left from talking with the crisis counsellor you left feeling as if he was actualling challenging you. Im so angry at how he treated you, Im so sorry that happened to you today, I really am. I hope that maybe you do consider laying a complaint with the service. How you were treated was dusgusting.
I’m tempted to put a complaint in but i just know from past experience that they don’t really take it seriously. I spoke to my therapist after it, and she was pretty angry but the way the system works here, is her hands are tied. She can’t get the right help for me without going through the crisis team and they have made it clear that I don’t need the help because I’m talking about suicide, he actually called it “self-preservation” i just can’t do this anymore I feel like if I don’t do it now, he’ll win
Sorry about what you've been going through. It's really baffling why the professionals just dismissing someone's pain. Along with what others said, perhaps they want to avoid responsibilities if something happens to you when under their care? Totally counterproductive...
It could be that... but then surely it’s the same if something happens to me after I’ve spoken to them
 
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MephistoJustBeneath

MephistoJustBeneath

Member
May 21, 2020
20
67
This is precisely why I don't believe in "seeking help." Shrinks are all completely worthless. Just a bunch of cops.

Funny enough, though, it's also why I've become more open about my suicidal ideation. Everyone will think I'm bluffing, so no one will be there to stop me once I actually do it.
 
I

Inner_dialogue

Member
May 19, 2020
34
122
This is precisely why I don't believe in "seeking help." Shrinks are all completely worthless. Just a bunch of cops.

Funny enough, though, it's also why I've become more open about my suicidal ideation. Everyone will think I'm bluffing, so no one will be there to stop me once I actually do it.
The “care” part is deffo missing in a lot of cases that’s a good point!
 
SleeplessSoul

SleeplessSoul

Veteran
Apr 10, 2020
126
143
The UK, where you have to be dead before you get any help....
I’m so unsurprised...

I was angry at first for you and then I remembered the amount of times that I have been told that ‘if I wanted to kill myself, I would have done it’. I know quite a few people who have been told that too
 
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I

Inner_dialogue

Member
May 19, 2020
34
122
I
I’m so unsurprised...

I was angry at first for you and then I remembered the amount of times that I have been told that ‘if I wanted to kill myself, I would have done it’. I know quite a few people who have been told that too
i was angry too, but now I’m like, it’s just kinda proving my point. And hey, at least I tried
 
I

Inner_dialogue

Member
May 19, 2020
34
122
Dude go over that person's head and find out how to report that shit to their supervisor and request your notes / written record of their decision to deny you.
I’m tempted...This community team have not got a great record either, under special measures a lot and I can see why!
 
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Suez

Suez

Wise
Feb 27, 2020
256
339
I’m tempted...This community team have not got a great record either, under special measures a lot and I can see why!
I really think you shuld. It absolutely disgusting how you were treated. If you have left that crisis counsellor at that time and taken your life, they would have had to answer some very difficult questions around accountability. They need to answer alot of questions around accountability after how they treated you Its concerning that this persons thinking is such that if you talk about Suicide that means your not going to do it. That they were able to come out and say that to you it seems quite easily, without any thought, makes me wonder, is this the mentality of all the crisis workers where ever this person is located? I mean, if you can just come out and say it like that, I would imagine then that you would also talk in the same way with your co-workers about suicide and people that talk about suicide. Im sure that crisis worker must have spoken about how they feel about people who talk abut suicide and whether they believe that people who talk about it are less likely to go through with it than those who dont mention suicide? Im just shocked. Im still shocked today, days after hearing you say that. I hope you day take them to task and make them accountable. Good luck to you.
 
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Iwantoutrightnow

Wise
Jun 27, 2019
201
510
It seems to me that in the UK with mental health services it goes like this

  1. You are struggling and all forms of media say that you should ask for help, there is help out there so you ask for help. Their response: You've asked for help so you don't need it.
  2. You can't take anymore so you attempt but for some reason it fails. Their response: Well you failed so this was obviously attention seeking and we won't reward that behaviour by offering you support.
  3. You attempt and succeed. Their response: She should have asked for help
I think that most of the people who work for mental health services in the UK actually do more damage to people than they help people. It's wrong and sad and disgusting.
 
disconnection

disconnection

It's the blue hour again
Apr 24, 2020
267
199
It seems to me that in the UK with mental health services it goes like this

  1. You are struggling and all forms of media say that you should ask for help, there is help out there so you ask for help. Their response: You've asked for help so you don't need it.
  2. You can't take anymore so you attempt but for some reason it fails. Their response: Well you failed so this was obviously attention seeking and we won't reward that behaviour by offering you support.
  3. You attempt and succeed. Their response: She should have asked for help
I think that most of the people who work for mental health services in the UK actually do more damage to people than they help people. It's wrong and sad and disgusting.
Agree with all of this but want to add a caveat - if you experience psychosis you are automatically not able to make any decisions for yourself and give us licence to force whatever we want upon you. Your (valid) complaints about your treatment will be ignored because we know that they will always be dismissed on the grounds of your obvious insanity.
 
C

ceelo

Member
May 18, 2020
81
59
The UK, where you have to be dead before you get any help....
i relate strongly, medically this country is shite.


On the thread however the truth is only 35% of people who attempt suicide ever succeed, this is because there is a brain type involved and most simply can never beat their amygdalas hard wiring, you should all read professor thomas joiners book "why people die from suicide", it actually helps you in a therapeutic way to be on the other side of the table looking at it academically.
 
Blackpoolbootz

Blackpoolbootz

If it sounds too good to be true it usually is.
Apr 19, 2020
52
72
Thought so, unsurprising.
Yes agree. Crisis team not fit for purpose they are bellitaling and patronising. I've only seen them once they did nothing for me to stop crying and said they couldn't give me anything to stop me feeling bad wish I pulled out a knife to use on myself and said their you go you will have to do something now, no wonder you feel bad after takes alot to discuss feelings of ending it with a stranger and then get it thrown back at you. Think bin the UK to be taken seriously you need to be talked down from a car park roof until your talking seriously. Sorry you had to go through this there are other party's of the mental health system that do care it's just a case of finding someone to help
 
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Inner_dialogue

Member
May 19, 2020
34
122
I really think you shuld. It absolutely disgusting how you were treated. If you have left that crisis counsellor at that time and taken your life, they would have had to answer some very difficult questions around accountability. They need to answer alot of questions around accountability after how they treated you Its concerning that this persons thinking is such that if you talk about Suicide that means your not going to do it. That they were able to come out and say that to you it seems quite easily, without any thought, makes me wonder, is this the mentality of all the crisis workers where ever this person is located? I mean, if you can just come out and say it like that, I would imagine then that you would also talk in the same way with your co-workers about suicide and people that talk about suicide. Im sure that crisis worker must have spoken about how they feel about people who talk abut suicide and whether they believe that people who talk about it are less likely to go through with it than those who dont mention suicide? Im just shocked. Im still shocked today, days after hearing you say that. I hope you day take them to task and make them accountable. Good luck to you.
Well what he said really effected me that I tried to take my own life at the weekend. It went wrong and then SI must have took over i didn’t try it because of what he said, because I’ve wanted to for a few months, but I just felt well fuck it then because no one believes me or wants to help.
It seems to me that in the UK with mental health services it goes like this

  1. You are struggling and all forms of media say that you should ask for help, there is help out there so you ask for help. Their response: You've asked for help so you don't need it.
  2. You can't take anymore so you attempt but for some reason it fails. Their response: Well you failed so this was obviously attention seeking and we won't reward that behaviour by offering you support.
  3. You attempt and succeed. Their response: She should have asked for help
I think that most of the people who work for mental health services in the UK actually do more damage to people than they help people. It's wrong and sad and disgusting.
You’ve summed it up perfectly! It feels like a no win situation.
 
S

summermoon

Member
May 24, 2020
11
16
Such a thinking is very prevalent. I remember a therapist telling my parents that the very fact I am doing therapy means I am not going to take any drastic steps.

I don't think its a science where in you formulate set of rules predicting if a person is going to ctb.. No one asks for help just for kicks specially for something as delicate as this. It takes courage and desperation in equal measure.
 
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SOWM

Member
Apr 27, 2020
9
26
Mental healthcare in the UK is so useless, every time I see a post like this I just know it’s from the UK. We’re one of the richest counties in the world and apparently one of the societally understanding of mental health but I’ve never heard a single person with serious issues say that they’ve actually been helped by the healthcare system. This government and society love saying you should get “help” but the reality is the services are underfunded, you’ll be on waiting lists for months if not over a year and once you finally get “help” they’ll often be unqualified and desperately trying to get rid of you asap to try to get the waiting list down!
I genuinely regret ever trying to engage with them at all.
 
C

ceelo

Member
May 18, 2020
81
59
Mental healthcare in the UK is so useless, every time I see a post like this I just know it’s from the UK. We’re one of the richest counties in the world and apparently one of the societally understanding of mental health but I’ve never heard a single person with serious issues say that they’ve actually been helped by the healthcare system. This government and society love saying you should get “help” but the reality is the services are underfunded, you’ll be on waiting lists for months if not over a year and once you finally get “help” they’ll often be unqualified and desperately trying to get rid of you asap to try to get the waiting list down!
I genuinely regret ever trying to engage with them at all.


i had to go private to get anything done and even then it was still not great and that was for straight forward medical stuff, they just never fucking listen and stick to limited outdated protocol, it was this that started and caused my serious issues i have now as for mental health its again a model with on grasp of anything just "here take these!" im yet to meet a single worker in the field thats even aware of thomas joiners work on suicide, dr claire weekes work on anxiety and so on, they know fuck all about anything.