Anyone struggling with guilt as main factor in desire to ctb?

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Fedrea

Member
May 14, 2020
29
47
Anyone struggling with guilt as main factor in desire to ctb? I really am but then it’s confusing because inappropriate guilt can be a symptom of depression. My depression only started in my mid 30s after years of traumatic events but it seemed to be triggered by something that made me feel guilty. It’s kicked off to bonkers levels this year due to a second incident which objectively I can see most people would not care about that makes so guilty but I have lost all hope for the future.

I do understand people wanting to ctb because they’re tired or because they have lost loved ones.......but I feel with isolation there is always a chance of turning things around, whereas if we are struggling with things in the past, we can’t change them.
 
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Aeathelina

A Tired Girl in Lonely World
Feb 5, 2020
44
86
I'm only 25 and plan to ctb by December of this year. The only guilt I feel is knowing that all my grandmother's efforts to raise me since from childhood would go to waste. But I feel overall that my existence does more harm than good for her in the long run.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Pensively Prolific
Jan 11, 2020
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From the outside looking in at the OP, it seems to me that there are at least a couple of ways to deal with the challenges caused by guilt.

One is to give the guilt authority by offering it validation and more power by asking if others also are considering ctb for the same reason.

Guilt is not an emotion but a message of condemnation,to the point of self-annihilation, often taken in during childhood from families and other powerfully influential groups such as religions. Guilt generally dislikes personal boundaries and doing things for ones own benefit and well-being. So another way to deal with this is to ask for outside opinions by talking about the guilt messages and the events that triggered them. The messages will likely lose validity when confronted, as will whoever/whatever is behind the messages. Then more messages of condemnation may come up to reinforce compliance, but that's validation that one is on the right track in spite and because of the discomfort the messages are meant to cause.
 
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Sisifo20

Member
May 22, 2020
13
7
Well guilt is bullshit, is your freakin life and your freakin decision what to do with your death wich is part of your life too. I mean, we are responsible of our actions, words etc, just like our family or people that known us are responsible of their actions, words and decision. What is not their business is what YOU DO, thats something that helps me when i get that guilt trying to CTB
 
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Fedrea

Member
May 14, 2020
29
47
From the outside looking in at the OP, it seems to me that there are at least a couple of ways to deal with the challenges caused by guilt.

One is to give the guilt authority by offering it validation and more power by asking if others also are considering ctb for the same reason.

Guilt is not an emotion but a message of condemnation,to the point of self-annihilation, often taken in during childhood from families and other powerfully influential groups such as religions. Guilt generally dislikes personal boundaries and doing things for ones own benefit and well-being. So another way to deal with this is to ask for outside opinions by talking about the guilt messages and the events that triggered them. The messages will likely lose validity when confronted, as will whoever/whatever is behind the messages. Then more messages of condemnation may come up to reinforce compliance, but that's validation that one is on the right track in spite and because of the discomfort the messages are meant to cause.
I think it just interests me even just academically because I didn’t suffer from guilt in my early life at all and I’m not religious And was not christened.. It started in my mid 30s and it was the cause of the depression. Low self-esteem seems to be a common cause, and guilt can be part of that but not always. Isolation seems to be another common cars. But it seems to me that that one can turn around.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Pensively Prolific
Jan 11, 2020
3,415
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I think it just interests me even just academically because I didn’t suffer from guilt in my early life at all and I’m not religious And was not christened.. It started in my mid 30s and it was the cause of the depression. Low self-esteem seems to be a common cause, and guilt can be part of that but not always. Isolation seems to be another common cars. But it seems to me that that one can turn around.
So academically, or analytically, what are the messages in the guilt?

Low self-esteem makes sense because guilt messages are condemning. It's hard to like oneself if they believe they are condemned, it's a kind of prison that takes away freedom or ability to grow, improve, or be different, or to move away from something.
 
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Fedrea

Member
May 14, 2020
29
47
So academically, or analytically, what are the messages in the guilt?

Low self-esteem makes sense because guilt messages are condemning. It's hard to like oneself if they believe they are condemned, it's a kind of prison that takes away freedom or ability to grow, improve, or be different, or to move away from something.
I don’t know if Guilt has messages, it just is. In my case I think I always defined myself by my own morals and couldn’t live with having breached them. I also got badly bullied in the workplace due to physical ill-health over many years. As you precisely define it takes away the ability to grow, improve, and move away from things.

The problem with feeling guilt over past events is that they are irreversible. Not every cause of depression is irreversible
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Pensively Prolific
Jan 11, 2020
3,415
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I don’t know if Guilt has messages, it just is. In my case I think I always defined myself by my own morals and couldn’t live with having breached them. I also got badly bullied in the workplace due to physical ill-health over many years. As you precisely define it takes away the ability to grow, improve, and move away from things.

The problem with feeling guilt over past events is that they are irreversible. Not every cause of depression is irreversible
I hear you and I acknowledge and honor your perspective.

I could be wrong about this, but as I read it, I thought that it sounds like you may struggle with something I've struggled with -- perfectionism and all-or-none, black-or-white thinking.

In my own growth, I've found that circumstances may be beyond one's power to change, especially if they are past, but perceptions and stances can be changed, especially if they don't serve, such as keeping one unable to move forward from the past via condemnation, perhaps by not allowing forgiveness for not knowing what one couldn't have known, or for making errors of judgment as all humans do. Even if the message says one is not allowed to make mistakes or missteps, that's unrealistic, because everyone does.

Morals, I think, should be friends that compassionately support and guide us to have the best possible in relationships and life, rather than follow us like a warden with a whip to keep us in a straight and unbending line. They should cleanse and purify and bring light for moving forward when we've been in error, not burn and scar and bring pain to hobble us. Wisdom does not come from perfectly following morals or precepts, but in finding their value by engaging with them when guidance is needed after having been in error, then they prove themselves to either have been correct or in need of adjustment. Wisdom comes from experience.

Anyhow, not trying to preach at you or change your mind. These are things I've engaged with in dealing with my own stuff. If none of it serves you, no big deal. I trust that you are able to find your own answers, and even your own questions, which it seems to me you are doing. Just because they overlap some of my own issues and learning doesn't mean they are absolutely related or will follow the same paths to whatever it is you seek for yourself, which may be different from what I seek.
 
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Fedrea

Member
May 14, 2020
29
47
I hear you and I acknowledge and honor your perspective.

I could be wrong about this, but as I read it, I thought that it sounds like you may struggle with something I've struggled with -- perfectionism and all-or-none, black-or-white thinking.

In my own growth, I've found that circumstances may be beyond one's power to change, especially if they are past, but perceptions and stances can be changed, especially if they don't serve, such as keeping one unable to move forward from the past via condemnation, perhaps by not allowing forgiveness for not knowing what one couldn't have known, or for making errors of judgment as all humans do. Even if the message says one is not allowed to make mistakes or missteps, that's unrealistic, because everyone does.

Morals, I think, should be friends that compassionately support and guide us to have the best possible in relationships and life, rather than follow us like a warden with a whip to keep us in a straight and unbending line. They should cleanse and purify and bring light for moving forward when we've been in error, not burn and scar and bring pain to hobble us. Wisdom does not come from perfectly following morals or precepts, but in finding their value by engaging with them when guidance is needed after having been in error, then they prove themselves to either have been correct or in need of adjustment. Wisdom comes from experience.

Anyhow, not trying to preach at you or change your mind. These are things I've engaged with in dealing with my own stuff. If none of it serves you, no big deal. I trust that you are able to find your own answers, and even your own questions, which it seems to me you are doing. Just because they overlap some of my own issues and learning doesn't mean they are absolutely related or will follow the same paths to whatever it is you seek for yourself, which may be different from what I seek.
That is very wise. Yes, you are precisely right, I have realised I have black and white thinking and perfectionism. There is such a thing as moral luck, though. Sometimes our life goes smoothly and we can adhere to our principles and sometimes it doesn’t and we are more likely to breach them. Forgiving ourselves is then the challenge.

It sounds like you have come along way and perhaps have followed a similar path with the guilt and self forgiveness or some such thing. I don’t mean to be facetious, but why then are you still on the board? To support others with your obvious wisdom? That wasn’t sarcastic
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

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Jan 11, 2020
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That is very wise. Yes, you are precisely right, I have realised I have black and white thinking and perfectionism. There is such a thing as moral luck, though. Sometimes our life goes smoothly and we can adhere to our principles and sometimes it doesn’t and we are more likely to breach them. Forgiving ourselves is then the challenge.

It sounds like you have come along way and perhaps have followed a similar path with the guilt and self forgiveness or some such thing. I don’t mean to be facetious, but why then are you still on the board? To support others with your obvious wisdom? That wasn’t sarcastic
You made me laugh! No offense taken at all.

My reasons for ctb are due to circumstances outside my control. It is a rational choice, but I have not fully committed to it. I've used the forum to work out issues that arose in making the decision and planning. By confronting the option and engaging with it, a lot has surfaced, so I continue to heal and grow even if I end up at that choice, and hopefully I'll feel confident in acting on that decision should I make it.

Until then, I interact here as I do in any environment. I bring myself, and my insights, I learn and grow from interacting with others and I hope they benefit from their interactions with me. Since I'm a communicative extrovert, this represents some of the best value I seek and receive in life.


I have found this to be so true:

Sometimes our life goes smoothly and we can adhere to our principles and sometimes it doesn’t and we are more likely to breach them. Forgiving ourselves is then the challenge.

Working with this has helped me in a lot of ways, including to be less rigid.

I've been enjoying this conversation. Although I'm sorry you're here and have compassion for whatever brought you here, I also am glad you're here and hope you get whatever benefit from it that serves your best interests and well-being. (An example of something I've been working on, holding two opposing and equally valid perspectives!)
 
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Fedrea

Member
May 14, 2020
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47
You made me laugh! No offense taken at all.

My reasons for ctb are due to circumstances outside my control. It is a rational choice, but I have not fully committed to it. I've used the forum to work out issues that arose in making the decision and planning. By confronting the option and engaging with it, a lot has surfaced, so I continue to heal and grow even if I end up at that choice, and hopefully I'll feel confident in acting on that decision should I make it.

Until then, I interact here as I do in any environment. I bring myself, and my insights, I learn and grow from interacting with others and I hope they benefit from their interactions with me. Since I'm a communicative extrovert, this represents some of the best value I seek and receive in life.


I have found this to be so true:

Sometimes our life goes smoothly and we can adhere to our principles and sometimes it doesn’t and we are more likely to breach them. Forgiving ourselves is then the challenge.

Working with this has helped me in a lot of ways, including to be less rigid.

I've been enjoying this conversation. Although I'm sorry you're here and have compassion for whatever brought you here, I also am glad you're here and hope you get whatever benefit from it that serves your best interests and well-being. (An example of something I've been working on, holding two opposing and equally valid perspectives!)
It sounds to me as if you might still not have resolved feelings of guilt, though I could be wrong. Where do we draw the line with a choice to CTB being rational? Is it to do with physical illness?
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Pensively Prolific
Jan 11, 2020
3,415
6,641
It sounds to me as if you might still not have resolved feelings of guilt, though I could be wrong. Where do we draw the line with a choice to CTB being rational? Is it to do with physical illness?
There are still areas in which I deal with guilt when I recognize that it comes up, but I don't have any guilt around my choice to ctb. Lots of other things have come up around acting on the choice, whether or not to leave a note, etc., which gave me opportunities to deal with those issues, including unreasonable guilt messages that said I had to do things for the benefit of others when in fact they would not benefit. That helped me work out some lifelong codependency that kept my focus on others over whom I have no control rather than on myself where it is needed and is most effective.

I don't share my reason to ctb because for that I don't need any support or want any input, so I've kept it private. But no, it's not anything to do with physical illness.

Here's a thread I started about the Stoic perspective on rational suicide (see comment 18 in particular, though there are other good comments as well), and I've also written about it on another thread where I journaled about my preparations to ctb:

 
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Taki

Taki

Wise
Jul 31, 2019
233
449
Anyone struggling with guilt as main factor in desire to ctb? I really am but then it’s confusing because inappropriate guilt can be a symptom of depression. My depression only started in my mid 30s after years of traumatic events but it seemed to be triggered by something that made me feel guilty. It’s kicked off to bonkers levels this year due to a second incident which objectively I can see most people would not care about that makes so guilty but I have lost all hope for the future.

I do understand people wanting to ctb because they’re tired or because they have lost loved ones.......but I feel with isolation there is always a chance of turning things around, whereas if we are struggling with things in the past, we can’t change them.
Not guilt but intense shame yes, and I’d say rightly so. I screwed up my life, and while people might disagree with me (what the he’ll do they know?), the disgust and shame I experience is overwhelming. I have some obligations to fulfill but don’t give myself more than a few years. The thought of a long life terrifies me.
 
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Fedrea

Member
May 14, 2020
29
47
There are still areas in which I deal with guilt when I recognize that it comes up, but I don't have any guilt around my choice to ctb. Lots of other things have come up around acting on the choice, whether or not to leave a note, etc., which gave me opportunities to deal with those issues, including unreasonable guilt messages that said I had to do things for the benefit of others when in fact they would not benefit. That helped me work out some lifelong codependency that kept my focus on others over whom I have no control rather than on myself where it is needed and is most effective.

I don't share my reason to ctb because for that I don't need any support or want any input, so I've kept it private. But no, it's not anything to do with physical illness.

Here's a thread I started about the Stoic perspective on rational suicide (see comment 18 in particular, though there are other good comments as well), and I've also written about it on another thread where I journaled about my preparations to ctb:

I didn’t really mean guilt around your choice to ctb......but instead that guilt that relates to our sense of self, the guilt that can underlie depression
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Pensively Prolific
Jan 11, 2020
3,415
6,641
I didn’t really mean guilt around your choice to ctb......but instead that guilt that relates to our sense of self, the guilt that can underlie depression
Yeah, I still work out issues with guilt and shame. I've done a lot of work over several years in that regard, so it gets easier now to recognize it, and easier to work to get power over over it rather than it having power over me. It still takes effort, but less than it used to. Sometimes I'll work through one of the messages, feel better, and start moving forward again, only to have another come up and try to pull me back (and pull me down, like depression), so it's a sign I'm doing the right thing, deal with the new assault, and keep going.

Have you ever read the book Boundaries? That helped me with understanding both external and internal resistance to boundaries, and how guilt is uncomfortable but also an affirmation that one is on the right track and to keep fighting. I learned that wherever there is a boundary, someone or something will try to fight and overcome it, whether coverly or overtly. It takes a lot of awareness, strength, and determination to have and maintain healthy, self-protecting/-preserving boundaries.
 
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mpnf

mpnf

Suffering in any form is the worst.
Oct 3, 2019
116
112
For my mother basically but , that's it.
 
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Fedrea

Member
May 14, 2020
29
47
Yeah, I still work out issues with guilt and shame. I've done a lot of work over several years in that regard, so it gets easier now to recognize it, and easier to work to get power over over it rather than it having power over me. It still takes effort, but less than it used to. Sometimes I'll work through one of the messages, feel better, and start moving forward again, only to have another come up and try to pull me back (and pull me down, like depression), so it's a sign I'm doing the right thing, deal with the new assault, and keep going.

Have you ever read the book Boundaries? That helped me with understanding both external and internal resistance to boundaries, and how guilt is uncomfortable but also an affirmation that one is on the right track and to keep fighting. I learned that wherever there is a boundary, someone or something will try to fight and overcome it, whether coverly or overtly. It takes a lot of awareness, strength, and determination to have and maintain healthy, self-protecting/-preserving boundaries.
This one?Talks about biblical boundaries

I’m sorry to hear you struggle with guilt
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Pensively Prolific
Jan 11, 2020
3,415
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This one?Talks about biblical boundaries

I’m sorry to hear you struggle with guilt
Yes, but ignore the Christian stuff if it doesn't serve you. It's a popular book among secular folks as well because it's got such solid concepts and advice. The authors seem to me to try to force their concepts into a biblical framework to justify them and it's not necessary or even accurate if you read it analytically, but it's not necessary if you want to skip over the biblical stuff. Here's a review I wrote of the book, as well as some other books that help with boundary issues:

 
Aliali1992

Aliali1992

We only live once..i hope
Jan 3, 2020
103
147
Yes Guilt is a a big part why i want to CTB... i can't stop blaming my self and playing the situations over and over in my head.. and i share your opinion that the pain is you can't change it and living in world that your mistakes made is really hard.
 
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