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After death...?

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LittleJem

Enlightened
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Here is one article with some death experiences: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/uk-world-news/what-happens-when-you-die-14247676

I spent an hour reading reports from people who temporarily died last night - and about 50% of them had experienced absolutely nothing (my preference) then the rest of them felt light/love/spirit etc...... That was on Reddit. So none the wiser... However, no-one said they were in pain - emotional or physical- after death, so it still sounds much better than depression.
 
Lupgevif

Lupgevif

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I mean, they all were dead for a period of time NOT enough for their brain and nerves to decay. I am interested to what is gonna happen to my conscience after my brain if fully decomposed, something I doubt anyone has experienced and came back to tell.
 
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Brokenwithbpd

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I mean, they all were dead for a period of time NOT enough for their brain and nerves to decay. I am interested to what is gonna happen to my conscience after my brain if fully decomposed, something I doubt anyone has experienced and came back to tell.
I agree. If your soul leaves, it ain’t coming back
 
Leshen

Leshen

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NDEs, while interesting, are absolutely useless - it's just dying brains releasing chemicals and basically tripping balls.
What it's actually like to be dead - after cremation or burial - nobody can tell. I can only hope it's eternal nonexistence.
 
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albino_elk

albino_elk

meet me beyond pain and happiness
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I mean, they all were dead for a period of time NOT enough for their brain and nerves to decay. I am interested to what is gonna happen to my conscience after my brain if fully decomposed, something I doubt anyone has experienced and came back to tell.
Google OBE similar experiences
But with obe you cant accidentally get a new body xd..
 
Jumper Geo

Jumper Geo

Life's a bitch and then you die.
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Here is one article with some death experiences: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/uk-world-news/what-happens-when-you-die-14247676

I spent an hour reading reports from people who temporarily died last night - and about 50% of them had experienced absolutely nothing (my preference) then the rest of them felt light/love/spirit etc...... That was on Reddit. So none the wiser... However, no-one said they were in pain - emotional or physical- after death, so it still sounds much better than depression.
I have read and watched 100's of books and movies on NDE's and Rebirth I find it fascinating, I think the suicidal become enlightened as we think about death constantly where as before it only hit me when someone close died and I attended the funeral. Here are two old NDE cases very short video's, enjoy whatever happens after death you have no body or nerves, so you won't feel pain.



Cheers

Geo
 
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worried_to_death

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NDEs, while interesting, are absolutely useless - it's just dying brains releasing chemicals and basically tripping balls.
I agree, but the interesting question is why those particular chemicals should be correlated or causally related to those particular subjective experiences, or even why they should be related to any subjective experience at all.
At bottom the hard problem of consciousness is still a mystery.
 
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
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whatever happens after death you have no body or nerves, so you won't feel pain.
Hm: I don't know about you, @Jumper Geo, honey, but I have a body that has nerves in it and until it's all used up and disintegrated we don't know what it/I will experience, do we. I *hope* it's nothing and not like experiencing what my leftovers are going through.
 
Jumper Geo

Jumper Geo

Life's a bitch and then you die.
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Hm: I don't know about you, @Jumper Geo, honey, but I have a body that has nerves in it and until it's all used up and disintegrated we don't know what it/I will experience, do we. I *hope* it's nothing and not like experiencing what my leftovers are going through.
There are 100's of NDE accounts where they reported they never felt no pain or stress just floating, others said they had knowledge of how everything works, some said they experienced previous life's but I'm OK with death, it's something that will happen sooner or later even if there's nothing the only true way to know is when you die.

Best wishes

Geo
 
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
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There are 100's of NDE accounts where they reported they never felt no pain or stress just floating, others said they had knowledge of how everything works, some said they experienced previous life's but I'm OK with death, it's something that will happen sooner or later even if there's nothing the only true way to know is when you die.

Best wishes

Geo
I'm ok with death too - just curious and happy to entertain all kinds of versions of what happens. NDEs may tell us a little about what it's like as we swirl down the drain, or not; as you say we'll all find out.
 
User Does Not Exist

User Does Not Exist

Buffering.....
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After death is like before our creation and birth,
Do we remember it? Do we have any recollection of anything?
We only have an idea of what may happen after due to experiencing life now, living, existing, people are made to fear death, a full stop, so we come up with all kinds of stories to try and make an understanding of something we simply cannot understand.

I have always believed in something, before and after, but as time goes on, I am starting to believe, all we experience is our mind's comforting us in a time of fear and the unknown. Death is part of this, we are born from nothing, we live an existence, we die with memories that fade and decay with our physical bodies back into nothing
 
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worried_to_death

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we are born from nothing
This isn't possible. Nothing comes from nothing.
We came from something, which includes fields of energy like electromagnetism, particles like electrons, protons, photons, gluons, chemical compounds, and perhaps consciousness fits in there somewhere. Something like consciousness can't just appear from elements that are totally unconscious, or which don't have at least some trace of consciousness in them. Perhaps there is something like a morphic field outside the electromagnetic field (after all, so-called 'dark matter', which cosmologists still don't understand, lies outside electromagnetism) which animates nature and produces life.
memories that fade and decay with our physical bodies back into nothing
We don't know whether our memories really disappear or not. We've not yet been able to find memory traces in any part of the brain. The idea that memories have definite neural locations in the brain and can perhaps be identified as specific neural patterns and pathways is an assumption of current modern neuroscience which has not been demonstrated.

If there is such a thing as morphic resonance (collective memories and nonlocal telepathic connections within species), then memories may actually be located outside the brain, and brain activity would then just be a receiver for those memories, like radio devices receive and convert to sound the radio wave frequencies of electromagnetism but don't cause them. When the radio doesn't function, the radio waves still exist.

I'm not saying any of this is true, I just like exploring possibilities.
 
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theguineapigking

theguineapigking

Every day I live is a day I wish I were dead...
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Longest post I’ve ever made(I think)

We can’t know anything for certain. It’s way too philosophical and I don’t think we humans can even begin to fathom it.

Just because we don’t remember a past life, doesn’t mean we didn’t have one(reincarnation or spiritual realm). A lot of people just assume that if we can’t remember anything from before we were born, then there is nothing after death...this is a close-minded way of thinking about it. Have you watched maze runner? I won’t spoil it in case, but read about it if you will on google, to get a better idea of what I mean.. But is it not possible that our limited human body doesn’t allow us access to our spiritual collective of memories? If you can suffer brain damage and lose your memories, or dream and not have access to memories or awareness, is it not possible that we come here to learn spiritually(I hate this world though lol..), and our memories are taken away to do so? Atheists need to stop dismissing this possibility. Religions need to stop being so sure of themselves. The fact is that we don’t know.


As for nde or obe, there’s too much conflicted info. There are stories of people dying at said time, then reporting details, including visuals and conversations at their house, or docs in another room. So that’s weird. There are also stories of hell, Jesus, allah, meeting with loved ones, and beautiful gardens with a sense of peace. Many also claim that the experience is very vivid and more real than this life, so real, that they believe this life to be a dream of sorts. Now, if the brain goes into some sort of state that could explain hyper awareness, the question is: Is that the cause of effect of the nde? Is the brain processing differently and working harder with certain chemicals(dmt I think??) to make a more vivid experience, or is it a byproduct of your consciousness(or soul?) experiencing something and the brain trying to make sense of it? Are we all connected to the universe on a quantum level, explaining telepathy?


The only spiritual thing that makes any sense to me to explain why NDEs vary so much is something along the lines of an astral realm, where there is in a state of flux and can be manipulated subconsciously like dreams, unlike the physical realm. Or spirit guides are showing you what you need to know.

As for those who don’t experience anything..what if they just don’t remember for some reason, because they weren’t mean to? Or maybe they weren’t meant to experience anything at all, because being unsure of an afterlife is part of the experience of life(f life haha).


Sometimes I think: What if I had a nde that feels so vivid and real, that it’s almost no doubt real. How can I compare that to this life? How could I know if this life is even real? I guess this life has been longer and constant, so there’s that. Otherwise, it’s hard to say. Some lucid dreams are claimed to be more real than this life as well(mine always feel fake af).


There have been numerous claims of astral projection(not simply a NDE) and past life memories.



I truly don’t think we’re meant to know, if there is indeed something more(I feel and fear that there is).


No matter how much you research, there will be those who say it was like being asleep when they died. Others will claim that they saw Jesus or even hell. Some say time passes faster there(much time...hours or even years goes by there, whereas in this life, mere minutes go by when they’re dead).


I just think it’s all too vague and I don’t think it will even be clear and concrete. I can’t really articulate well enough to describe my thoughts to you guys about reality and stuff...I wish I could, but I just can’t.


Sadly, I guess it comes down to: We die and live on, or we Die and cease to exist. I don’t think we’ll know until it happens(or maybe we won’t ever ‘know’ if we cease to exist instantly).

If you guys are interested in trying to explore astral possibilities, look into astral projection. Try to leave your body. My sister claims to have felt like she stepped out of her body and saw my other sister’s playing card, and she got it right(the card was out of view across the room). Sadly, the closest to obe I’ve come is lucid dreaming and rolling out of my bed, rising out of my body, or finding myself in the basement in a dream. But it always feels super fake, and my thoughts aren’t cohesive enough to try to test if it’s somehow astral projection. I gave up months ago on this.


I really wish I could know if ndes are legit spiritual.
This isn't possible. Nothing comes from nothing.
We came from something, which includes fields of energy like electromagnetism, particles like electrons, protons, photons, gluons, chemical compounds, and perhaps consciousness fits in there somewhere. Something like consciousness can't just appear from elements that are totally unconscious, or which don't have at least some trace of consciousness in them. Perhaps there is something like a morphic field outside the electromagnetic field (after all, so-called 'dark matter', which cosmologists still don't understand, lies outside electromagnetism) which animates nature and produces life.

We don't know whether our memories really disappear or not. We've not yet been able to find memory traces in any part of the brain. The idea that memories have definite neural locations in the brain and can perhaps be identified as specific neural patterns and pathways is an assumption of current modern neuroscience which has not been demonstrated.

If there is such a thing as morphic resonance (collective memories and nonlocal telepathic connections within species), then memories may actually be located outside the brain, and brain activity would then just be a receiver for those memories, like radio devices receive and convert to sound the radio wave frequencies of electromagnetism but don't cause them. When the radio doesn't function, the radio waves still exist.

I'm not saying any of this is true, I just like exploring possibilities.

Holy Cow, that’s an interesting theory. I can’t believe that I haven’t considered that. You seem to know your stuff. I’ve also thought about consciousness being projected into the body(like photons from a flashlight), but the consciousness exists outside of the body far away in a spiritual realm. Or maybe the consciousness is surrounding the body and functions through the brain(like putting a proxy between the modem and computer). Your theory is very interesting. It’s crazy how there’s dark matter and antimatter too! I remember reading that positrons orbit atoms instead of the electron negative charge! It’s so weird. Then there’s the god particle that is thought to give mass to matter. I wonder if consciousness would be quantum(made of quarks and whatever), or if it would be even deeper than that and be it’s own force like you said. Weird stuff.
 
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worried_to_death

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spiritual collective of memories
Are we all connected to the universe on a quantum level, explaining telepathy
I posted a post at almost exactly the same time as you, and we both mentioned collective memories and telepathy. Weird coincidence?
chemicals(dmt I think??)
dmt experiences are real I think, not just chemical-induced hallucinations.

If you start getting into the literature on ayahuasca and dmt, there seems to be no reason for dmt to cause those specific experiences (crazy four-dimensional worlds, bizarre huge wise serpents, machine elves, preying mantis-like creatures doing brain experiments etc), and for them to be similar across cultures and between individuals, unless it acts as a sort of portal to another dimension of consciousness.
 
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theguineapigking

theguineapigking

Every day I live is a day I wish I were dead...
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527
I posted a post at almost exactly the same time as you, and we both mentioned collective memories and telepathy. Weird coincidence?

dmt experiences are real I think, not just chemical-induced hallucinations.

If you start getting into the literature, there seems to be no reason for dmt to cause those specific experiences (crazy four-dimensional worlds, bizarre huge wise serpents, machine elves, preying mantis-like creatures doing brain experiments etc), and for them to be similar across cultures and between individuals, unless it acts as a sort of portal to another dimension of consciousness.

I’ve read about symbols that are gateways into different levels of the astral realm. Some people claim they really work. I have a popular book about astral projection that also claims prophecy. There’s this really word method about asking a question to the oracle and translating the meaning to words. I never tried it because it seems a bit nuts, but who knows?


I have this feeling in me, this weird energy, that tells me there’s something more. I swear it’s this instinct(not any memories) that tells me that there’s an afterlife similar to the astral realm. I don’t know though, it could just be my human brain playing tricks on me!


Yeah, it was a weird coincidence that we both said the same thing!...or was it(scary music queue..naaa naaa baaaa naaa)! I really found that weird!

Do/did you study physics and philosophy at school? Or do you google it? I just know the basics, but you seem to be in depth with this stuff. Have you ever thought about astral projection? Do you think that dreams are obe in a low intensity realm? Or do you think there’s a line between dreams and obe(maybe dreams are created by the brain, by recreating the electric signals it receives on a daily basis)? Maybe obe disconnects your brain from your consciousness? I really, really like what you said about the brain being a radio, channeling in the emf...I actually have thought about this before, but not exactly the way you stated it, and I didn’t think I’m depth on it, so I just sort of forgot about that possibility.

Thanks for your insights by the way!
 
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worried_to_death

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that’s an interesting theory
I recommend that you check out rupert sheldrake, a biologist (plant physiologist). He came up with the idea of morphic resonance, morphic fields and believes this could explain telepathy, self-organizing systems, and possibly consciousness. He doesn't think there are any 'laws of nature', only habits which energy/matter/particles adopt across time in a constantly evolving system. He thinks the sun (even the whole universe) could be conscious in some way.
He is dismissed by mainstream science, but only because mainstream science is so dogmatic and narrow-minded (imo).
Or maybe the consciousness is surrounding the body and functions through the brain(like putting a proxy between the modem and computer)
yes, this is a good way of looking at it
I wonder if consciousness would be quantum(made of quarks and whatever), or if it would be even deeper than that and be it’s own force like you said
I think it could be present at that level, or even lower. Have you heard of the pribram-bohm hypothesis of consciousness? It locates consciousness at below the smallest experimentally corroborated unit of length it's possible to make meaningful statements about (planck length (10-33 cm)), many times smaller than even the smallest subatomic particles. Below that is a kind of quantum black hole, possibly a rabbit hole to a whole other reality. Alice in wonderland stuff.

Do/did you study physics and philosophy at school
yes, I did philosophy, but I've taught myself a lot of things too.
Have you ever thought about astral projection? Do you think that dreams are obe in a low intensity realm? Or do you think there’s a line between dreams and obe(maybe dreams are created by the brain, by recreating the electric signals it receives on a daily basis)? Maybe obe disconnects your brain from your consciousness?
Yes, I've thought about astral projection, but I've never experienced it, so any thoughts I have on it would be uninformed speculation.
I don't rule out the idea that it could be our consciousness tuning into another dimensional realm. After all, we only can perceive 0.0035% of the electromagnetic spectrum in the form of visible light. Over 99.9995% of energy frequencies are therefore phenomenologically inaccessible to us. Who's to say what we would experience if we could access them through consciousness?

I'm not sure about dreams. Many dreams seem tied to our individual pasts in a way which suggests that they are connected to the individual brain's neuroelectrical activity. However, the experience itself may take place in a parallel realm, but in an identical 'location' to the brain activity, without it 'being' the brain activity. Or it could be the brain's activity, just located at the quantum level, if consciousness is a feature of that level of reality.

I think our consciousness could theoretically be disconnected from our brain, or maybe it's never truly 'connected' to our brain in the sense of it being identical to neurochemical activity. Brain activity is required to manifest it at this frequency/energy level, to localize it, focus it within the spacetime location of a body, but the subjective experience itself may be taking place in another parallel metaphysical realm (psychophysical parallelism, i.e. Spinoza). Even though on appearances it's 'located' in a brain/body.
I don't know though, just exploring ideas.
 
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Lupgevif

Lupgevif

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Google OBE similar experiences
But with obe you cant accidentally get a new body xd..
You still have a body to get back to. I want to know about after the link has been severed. Mediums don't count, they are still an alive brain, there is no proof they indeed have another person's soul in their body and aren't just pretending/ acting. I want to know what is like when the "soul" has nothing physical do go back to.
 
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worried_to_death

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Also, materialist reductionism, of the sort which is now mainstream in neuroscience and cognitive neuroscience, is arbitrary and limiting.

Consciousness is explained as 'arising' (as an 'emergent property', scientific newspeak for 'we don't know how, but we'll use this naturalistic-sounding but nonexplanatory placeholder to make people think it's all more or less understood') from brain activity.
But what gives rise to brain activity? Individual cells interacting?
And what gives rise to cells? Chemical molecular reactions?
And giving rise to them? Atoms?
And them? Subatomic particles?
And them? Quantum fields?
And those? The big bang?
And that? Nothing?

So in the last analysis modern science arrives at the nonexplanatory and absurd position that nothing gave rise to consciousness.
 
Deformationalplagio

Deformationalplagio

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There is nothing after death everyone who thinks otherwise didn't think life trough there is no soul its just your brain honestly we are biological robots
 
theguineapigking

theguineapigking

Every day I live is a day I wish I were dead...
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There is nothing after death everyone who thinks otherwise didn't think life trough there is no soul its just your brain honestly we are biological robots

How do you know? If we can exist now, then why can’t we exist before/after being born/dying? You can believe what you want, however, it could be that this world is sort of like the matrix, but we come here to learn instead..??

The thing is that Nobody knows for sure if there’s an afterlife or not, and that’s just facts bruh.
 
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worried_to_death

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we are biological robots
A robot is by definition a machine created by humans to mimic certain types of human behaviors.

But to then define humans themselves as robots of a biological kind is just to use a metaphor in a question-begging way.

I find this to be a current dogma and trope in science, and you find this idea of humans just being machines/robots/computational systems everywhere, i.e. "We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes." - Dawkins.

Ok, it's a dramatic image, but there are no sufficient data to suggest that's all we are, or that consciousness itself can be reduced to a material function which serves only this purpose.

There is nothing after death everyone who thinks otherwise didn't think life trough there is no soul its just your brain
How certain are you there is nothing after death?
You might be right that there is no 'soul' in the sense of an immaterial ghost in the body, but we really know little about consciousness or how it fits into the universe.

We don't have sufficient data to determine whether subjective experience ends at death or not. Perhaps there is such a thing as a generic subjective continuity which would allow for reincarnation. Perhaps consciousness is more fundamental to the universe than science currently thinks.

There is an 'integrated information theory' (iit) of consciousness proposed by neuroscientist giulio tononi which starts with consciousness as axiomatic and derives physical systems from the basic axioms.

Axiomatic to conscious experience according to iit are:
* intrinsic existence (subjective experience exists and is not some kind of illusion which a physical system plays on itself)
* composition (structure)
* information (specificity of each experience through differentiation from other experiences)
* integration (unified field of experience)
^ exclusion (it is definite and has the properties and only the properties it is experienced as having)

Consciousness is assumed by modern neuroscience to reduce to neurons firing electrical impulses and chemicals between one another through synapses within the brain.

This is an error of confusing a model (an objectively testable and verifiable structure) for a reality (the subjective awareness of experience), which is further embedded within the modern mindset with the extra error of conflating correlation (the neural correlates of consciounsness) for sufficient cause or identity.

It is thought that because consciousness is correlated to brain activity (brain scans, brain damage seem to show this), the brain must either sufficiently cause consciousness (epiphenomenalism) or be identical to it (identity theory).
But to go from correlation to cause or identity is a not a logical sequence.

How about the idea that the brain itself could not exist as a self-organizing system if it wasn't enveloped within a more fundamental consciousness reality?

Something along the lines of what max planck is suggesting here: "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."

Or here: "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

I'm not trying to use an argument from authority, but trying to illustrate the point that perhaps current neuroscience and evolutionary biology have things upside down.
 
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theguineapigking

theguineapigking

Every day I live is a day I wish I were dead...
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A robot is by definition a machine created by humans to mimic certain types of human behaviors.

But to then define humans themselves as robots of a biological kind is just to use a metaphor in a question-begging way.

I find this to be a current dogma and trope in science, and you find this idea of humans just being machines/robots/computational systems everywhere, i.e. "We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes." - Dawkins.

Ok, it's a dramatic image, but there are no sufficient data to suggest that's all we are, or that consciousness itself can be reduced to a material function which serves only this purpose.


How certain are you there is nothing after death?
You might be right that there is no 'soul' in the sense of an immaterial ghost in the body, but we really know little about consciousness or how it fits into the universe.

We don't have sufficient data to determine whether subjective experience ends at death or not. Perhaps there is such a thing as a generic subjective continuity which would allow for reincarnation. Perhaps consciousness is more fundamental to the universe than science currently thinks.

There is an 'integrated information theory' (iit) of consciousness proposed by neuroscientist giulio tononi which starts with consciousness as axiomatic and derives physical systems from the basic axioms.

Axiomatic to conscious experience according to iit are:
* intrinsic existence (subjective experience exists and is not some kind of illusion which a physical system plays on itself)
* composition (structure)
* information (specificity of each experience through differentiation from other experiences)
* integration (unified field of experience)
^ exclusion (it is definite and has the properties and only the properties it is experienced as having)

Consciousness is assumed by modern neuroscience to reduce to neurons firing electrical impulses and molecules to one another within the brain.

This is an error of confusing a model (an objectively testable and verifiable structure) for a reality (the subjective awareness of experience), which is further embedded within the modern mindset with to the extra error of conflating correlation (the neural correlates of consciounsness) for sufficient cause or identity.

It is thought that because consciousness is correlated to brain activity (brain scans, brain damage seem to show this), the brain must either sufficiently cause consciousness (epiphenomenalism) or be identical to it (identity theory).
But to go from correlation to cause or identity is a not a logical sequence.

How about the idea that the brain itself could not exist as a self-organizing system if it wasn't enveloped within a more fundamental consciousness reality?

Something along the lines of what max planck is suggesting here: "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."

Or here: "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

I'm not trying to use an argument from authority, but trying to illustrate the point that perhaps current neuroscience and evolutionary biology have things upside down.

Holy Pickle Rick Circle Jerk!

Are you taking about the idea that the complex human brain would have to have been designed by more complex beings(a higher conscious reality)? That’s interesting if so.

When you said axiomatic to conscious experience: Does composition mean wave form or something? I’ve read about the double slit theory and how the photon split into a quantum entangled photon pair, then was monitored. They found that if it was observed, it acted as a particle. If not, it acted as a waveform. So I thought that was interesting.


Have you thought about the possibility that probability doesn’t exist? It’s an illusion, but everything, including rolling the dice, is already determined? Just another weird thought i have.


Something along the lines of what max planck is suggesting here: "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."
Do you mean that you think consciousness may hold matter together, like gluons? What do you mean?

Sorry, I’m not nearly as smart or advanced as you.
 
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worried_to_death

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Are you taking about the idea that the complex human brain would have to have been designed by more complex beings(a higher conscious reality)?
I'm not sure, as 'designed' is such a loaded word. The most I would say is that a subjectively self-experiencing force, perhaps intrinsic to a base layer of reality, is needed to account for self-organizing systems, and the living natural world. I know that current evolutionary biology models of abiogenesis say consciousness is irrelevant (i.e. the miller-urey experiment) and all you need is chemicals, a source of energy, and the right atmospheric conditions for life to emerge. But one of their hidden assumptions is that electrons, photons, gluons, electromagnetic forces, chemical reactions, are 100% blind, phenomenologically dead, have a experiential awareness of zero. I don't think this assumption is justified.

Also, I don't rule out the idea that because dna coding determining protein sequences is so complex, and that it 'only' took a billion years or so for the first life forms to emerge (prokaryotes), this suggests that some kind of 'intelligence' may have got it started. Maybe advanced aliens, or maybe some incomprehensible transcendent cognitive force, who knows.

The physicist jeremy england thinks he may have the answer with 'dissipation-driven adaptation', the idea that in the right conditions molecules can spontaneously self-organize to metabolize energy and dissipate it more efficiently. But this doesn't explain why molecules would have this potential to self-organize in the first place, or what possible benefit could be gained from a blindly self-sustaining process of increasing complexity through iterative algorithms.
When you said axiomatic to conscious experience: Does composition mean wave form or something? I’ve read about the double slit theory and how the photon split into a quantum entangled photon pair, then was monitored. They found that if it was observed, it acted as a particle. If not, it acted as a waveform. So I thought that was interesting.
I don't think it necessarily means wave form. Composition could just mean that each conscious experience is made up of distinctions which are embedded within each other, e.g. a circle, the color purple, upward not downwards, a purple circle, a purple circle located upwards etc.

Yes, I know the double slit experiment. Maybe consciousness acts to compose a pre-observed wave-reality into discrete states, effectively collapsing the wave function. Although I know that 'observation' in quantum mechanics doesn't necessarily mean the observation has to be a conscious experience.

Have you thought about the possibility that probability doesn’t exist? It’s an illusion, but everything, including rolling the dice, is already determined? Just another weird thought i have.
Yes. There could be hidden variables in quantum mechanics corresponding to subatomic particles which we haven't detected yet, which would eliminate the indeterminacy and uncertainty we currently ascribe to that level of reality.
Einstein may have been right all along.

When it come to classical physics, there is no such thing as probability in the world. You are correct.
Probability is a function of human ignorance, of a deficient epistemology.
For example, if we knew everything about a dice and the initial conditions in which someone rolled it, its weight, exact size, everything about the force that rolled it, everything about the atmospheric conditions in which the roll took place, air resistance etc, and everything about the object onto which it was rolled, accounting for friction etc, then we would be able to predict with 100% certainty what number it would land on.

This is all better described by 'laplace's demon' : "An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes."

Do you mean that you think consciousness may hold matter together, like gluons? What do you mean?
I think that's what max planck was suggesting yes.
What I've found is that many of the great theoretical and particle physicists of the 20th century weren't dogmatic materialists because they were humble enough to realize that they didn't really know what 'matter' is, and that at the base level of what can be known matter sort of evaporates to be replaced by information and ideas and symmetries.

This quote from heisenberg: "Modern physics has definitely decided in favor of Plato. In fact the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language."

So when people today say that consciousness is reducible to material brain states, what they don't seem to take into account is the fact that behind brain states at base reality is a world of form, idea, information, number, and 'matter' is nowhere to be found.
Then there are interesting questions such as 'where did this basic information of forms and ideas originate?', 'is it being thought by something?' etc.

Sorry, I’m not nearly as smart or advanced as you.
Why do you say that?
I'm not that smart, I just enjoy discussing things like this.
I'm not an authority on anything.
 
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Lunaloveflood

Lunaloveflood

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I just hope that when we die our mind is freed from this depressing world we live in and that we can go wherever we want in the universe or disapear for eternity. I hope we can choose what to do, feel or experience. I'm so tired of being a slave of this degenerate human society .
 
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Givingupandgivingin

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There’s nothing.
Any near death experiences are just your brain shutting down and protecting you in your last moments. We are our brain - hence if you have brain damage or dementia your personality changes sometimes. We do not have a soul. What was it like before you were born? It was nothing. It is the same when you die. We are no more special than any other species and we don’t believe that rats or cockroaches live on when they die.
I don’t want there to be anything. What would be the point of CTB if there were? I want to be gone.
 
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worried_to_death

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There’s nothing.
how do you know this?
Any near death experiences are just your brain shutting down and protecting you in your last moments.
how do you know this?
We are our brain - hence if you have brain damage or dementia your personality changes sometimes
This doesn't show that 'we are our brain'. It just shows that the brain is required for consciousness and memory to function properly when awake.
Just like a radio needs to be turned on and tuned in to a particular frequency for it receive radio waves and convert them to meaningful sound.
If the radio breaks the radio waves still exist.
What was it like before you were born? It was nothing. It is the same when you die
How do you know? You may have had many lives before this one, yet with each reincarnation, you forget the past lives and think there was 'nothing' before birth.

And let's assume that you're right and there was just 'nothing' before birth. Well, that 'nothing' still became something at some point in time for some mysterious reason, so why should subjective experience not be able to arise again after the 'nothingness' of death?
The same logic applies and symmetry would suggest that that 'nothing' can turn into subjective experience again.
I'm not saying it's true or that I know this, I'm just saying you cannot be sure of your claims.
We are no more special than any other species and we don’t believe that rats or cockroaches live on when they die.
But a generic subjectivity of experience may be something continuous, if consciousness is a field of some sort, which would encompass all living beings (panpsychism).
I don’t want there to be anything. What would be the point of CTB if there were? I want to be gone.
That's fine, but why present your views as if you know them to be true?
No one knows what comes after death.
I assume the reason you want to ctb is because you hate your current existence. What if whatever happens after death is something much better?
 
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Givingupandgivingin

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how do you know this?

how do you know this?

This doesn't show that 'we are our brain'. It just shows that the brain is required for consciousness and memory to function properly when awake.
Just like a radio needs to be turned on and tuned in to a particular frequency for it receive radio waves and convert them to meaningful sound.
If the radio breaks the radio waves still exist.

How do you know? You may have had many lives before this one, yet with each reincarnation, you forget the past lives and think there was 'nothing' before birth.

And let's assume that you're right and there was just 'nothing' before birth. Well, that 'nothing' still became something at some point in time for some mysterious reason, so why should subjective experience not be able to arise again after the 'nothingness' of death?
The same logic applies and symmetry would suggest that that 'nothing' can turn into subjective experience again.
I'm not saying it's true or that I know this, I'm just saying you cannot be sure of your claims.

But a generic subjectivity of experience may be something continuous, if consciousness is a field of some sort, which would encompass all living beings (panpsychism).

That's fine, but why present your views as if you know them to be true?
No one knows what comes after death.
I assume the reason you want to ctb is because you hate your current existence. What if whatever happens after death is something much better?
Because there being nothing makes the most sense.
We are our brains. What happens to our brain is what affects us. We aren’t some special species that has extra importance. It makes no sense to think otherwise.
There has never been any ‘proof’ that anything exists afterwards. Why should anything exist afterwards?
 
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worried_to_death

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Why should anything exist afterwards?
But why should anything exist now? Why should you be conscious now?
Personally I don't think that a flicker of consciousness between two eternities of nothingness makes any sense at all.

I haven't said that humans are somehow a specially important species.
Maybe the whole of nature, including plants and trees, participates, at different levels of intensity and complexity, in subjective conscious experiences which fluctuate, momentarily go out, arise again in other organisms, the whole constituting an experiential field like the electromagnetic field.
As Voltaire said: “It is not more surprising to be born twice than once; everything in nature is resurrection.”

But maybe you're right, which would also be fine by me. Better than suffering.
 
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Jumper Geo

Jumper Geo

Life's a bitch and then you die.
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Messages
1,809
There’s nothing.
Any near death experiences are just your brain shutting down and protecting you in your last moments. We are our brain - hence if you have brain damage or dementia your personality changes sometimes. We do not have a soul. What was it like before you were born? It was nothing. It is the same when you die. We are no more special than any other species and we don’t believe that rats or cockroaches live on when they die.
I don’t want there to be anything. What would be the point of CTB if there were? I want to be gone.
Sorry I must disagree rats and cockroaches don't reincarnate, where do our MP's and Politicians come from then, :smiling:

Cheers

Geo
 
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